Wool W2W

[Goomer]

I came across several staircases of wool or wool blend today. I am not sure if they were 100 percent wool, because I plucked several loose fibers to check, and they had a smooth stiff hard acrylic feel to them. I was sure of the wool content as soon as I presprayed them and got a whiff


View attachment 887
In remembering most information here about cleaning w2w wool, I did remember that it was the older Jute backing that was the thing to worry about regarding shrinkage, and that if it was newer carpet, which it obviously is, just don't over wet/heat/ph, and there should be no problem, but it seems that there was some shrinkage. Right after a very light prespray and low psi/heat cleaning, I noticed that the sides of the stairs were pulling away from the walls. Upon closer inspection I found that all the landings were tacked to the wall on all 4 sides, but on the stair treads, only one side of the tread was tacked down, and the side up against the wall was not fastened in any way, only cut flush to the wall, and it was this unfastened side that was showing a gap.I checked the lower uncleaned dry staircase to confirm, and again, not fasted in anyway against the wall.
The end result was this:

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So my questions are:

Is there a valid reason it was installed this way??
Is there anything I could have done to avoid it??
Will it relax and return to normal when dry??

 

[ACE]

Old or new it’s still got a natural fiber base yard.
You’re lucky it was a staircase and not a huge room because every seam would rip!! Ask me how I know.
I clean wool staircases with the upholstery tool using mostly the Mist and Vac method. I pad cap WW2WW (woven wall 2 wall wool) using very low moisture. I only use HWE for spot removal. I DGAS what anyone says any woven w2w wool should not be HWE.

 

[ruff]

It should not be an issue if the secondary backing is jute (could brown with too much water but not shrink.)

If it is woven, too much water will create that issue.
Which is it?

If it is a woven I would have avoided the pre-spray, as most contain penetrating (wetting) agents that allow more water to go in. As you did, I would have reduced PSi to about 150-200, wet pass on the pull only. And release the trigger before ending the pass, as to not leave any moisture that was not picked up.

 

[dealtimeman]

So ofer, would you of just ran a rinse at 150
psi?

 

[Mikey P]

can't quite tell from your small pics, but it looks like a sea grass/ sisal product to me.


did you do a burn test?

 

[Mikey P]

any pics of the backing?

 

[The Great Oz]

I came across several staircases of wool or wool blend today. I am not sure if they were 100 percent wool, because I plucked several loose fibers to check, and they had a smooth stiff hard acrylic feel to them. I was sure of the wool content as soon as I presprayed them and got a whiff

A wool acrylic blend is pretty common. As long as the acrylic is 50% or less these carpets seem to hold up pretty well. Good that it passed the smell test so you know the face fiber had some wool in it.

I did remember that it was the older Jute backing that was the thing to worry about regarding shrinkage, and that if it was newer carpet, which it obviously is, just don't over wet/heat/ph, and there should be no problem...

Jute backing will shrink, old or new. Loosely woven Axminsters with a high jute content will shrink drastically.

So my questions are:

Is there a valid reason it was installed this way??

Most stair carpet is not attached on either side.

Is there anything I could have done to avoid it??

Control the amount of water you put down and minimize dwell time. You could skip the pre-treatment and clean with an upholstery tool if you knew this was a concern.

Will it relax and return to normal when dry??

It will take a lot of foot traffic, but it will eventually.

 

[Harry Myers]

It is woven with an attached jute backing. Yes any jute will shrink when wet. Most likley the backing is jute and it shrank.

 

[Jack May]

I'm with Mikey on this.

Did it have a nice soft hand?

Looks like seagrass or similar to me, and yes, it will shrink and water mark like crazy as it dries.

John

 

[sweendogg]

As Bryan touched on. Most staircases are not attached at the side.. Though in reality they should be side stripped... especielly a low profile carpet like this to keep both tension across the step as well as to make up for unperfect stair treads. Cut to thin and a gap will show.. to full and it would bunch eventually creating a wrinkly on the riser or tread... but if side stripped, it holds the tension and creates a gully for any extra. Its very rare to find installers who even know about side stripping stairs as it seems to be a lost skill not taught anymore.

But in this situation... burn test perhaps next time.

 

[Jamesh921]

There's no "valid" reason why it was installed this way - someone was just too lazy to do it right. ALL steps should be properly tackstripped on all sides. ESPECIALLY against the wall.

The only way to avoid running into problems like this is to do an "extensive" inspection prior to cleaning - and no one can catch every little thing. Sometimes we just have to deal with this kinda stuff as it comes.

I have no idea if it will "relax and return to normal when dry". No one does. But, you can make an extra couple/three hundred bucks if you know how to remove the carpet from the steps, install tackstrip on the side and then reinstall the step.

You didn't create this problem, so don't take responsibility for it. Offer to fix it and you may end up being their hero.

Let us know how it turns out.

James

 

[Goomer]

There was a bound area rug of the same carpet in the living room that was done first.I flipped the corners to get a look at the backing and it seemed like a hard very thin hard backing. Matter of fact, the carpet as a whole was very thin, with a tight weave, and very stiff. Typical scratchy wool feel. It had a thin felt type pad underneath and so did the stairs.. Although I am no master at ID on odd stuff like this, with the fact that the backing seemed standard, and it had the wool feel, I was not too concerned. I suspected a wool content at the least, so just pre-sprayed lightly, and lowered my psi, and tried not to over-wet as it was not really dirty, and I remember many discussions back and forth regarding W2W wool, and didn't think I would have an issue as long as I didn't over-wet.

Ofer, you mention the weave. Are you saying the weaved wool (content) has more tendency to shrink a little than non-weaved wool??

Not to steer any blame, but I am disappointed that the lack of even the most minimal securing method along the wall, especially if the product is so susceptible to shrinking, and the choice was made to go all the way flush to it. It seemed to be a very slight shrinkage as well as the ends slightly curling up, and would think the slightest fastener would have kept it in place with no problem.

 

[Jack May]

I'm more convinced that it is a sea guess type material based on your description.

As such, I doubt it'll go back to pre cleaning width.

Even uplifting and installing tackless and trying to stretch it in, you're going to be pushing it uphill I feel.

Harry or David might be better qualified to comment on that side of things, just be cautious before promising to fix the problem.

John

 

[Harry Myers]

Did it have a rubber latex backing, was it a brown or light beige jute. Or was it an action back like the every day norm. Tomorrow I will take a look st my computer at the shop. Its definately not sea grass.

 

[Goomer]

Backing looked like this.
Very hard and thin.

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Polypropylene??

 

[ACE]

99%+ of carpet is installed with no support on the sides. I would not expect that average installer in the US to take any extra measures on wool (hand sewing seams, beefing up tack strips ect,).

It may be the installers fault, but you will gain no credibility by point it out after a failed cleaning attempt. It is much better to error on the side of caution with W2WW. I hope someone reading this will learn Franks’s and my mistakes. You cannot imagine the horror of seeing every seem rip and tack strip pop from only prespray.

 

[Goomer]

It may be the installers fault, but you will gain no credibility by point it out after a failed cleaning attempt. It is much better to error on the side of caution with W2WW. I hope someone reading this will learn Franks’s and my mistakes. You cannot imagine the horror of seeing every seem rip and tack strip pop from only prespray.

I clearly remembered several w2ww posts, and even checked them when I returned home to be sure. Some of you guys warned of it, including you Mike,
http://mikeysboard.com/forum/showthread.php?260904-Wall-to-Wall-Wool&highlight=wall+wool

but more guys seemed to say that they clean it all the time with no problem without even controlling moisture, so I though I was safe with only a quick backing check, and watch my moisture as best I could. I'm not sure I will ever figure out exactly what the reason was, but I can tell you I will accept my responsibility, and will be playing it VERY safe in the future with such product.
Luckily, no one but the housekeeper was home at the time and did not seem to notice, and I received an email from the customer today when they returned from vacation, stating everything looked great and they were very pleased, so it either flattened out a bit, or it was not noticed YET.

Time will tell.
Lesson learned.

 

[ruff]

Ofer, you mention the weave. Are you saying the weaved wool (content) has more tendency to shrink a little than non-weaved wool??

Yes, the weft is made of jute and will shrink in woven rugs. Unlike Bryan's experience, I don't find Jute secondary backing (not talking about a weave, weft or warp) to have a shrinkage issue (unless one wets it like crazy, which you didn't.) Browning? yes. Shrinkage? Not in my experience.

The weft in the Wilton or Axminster, is not a backing. It is part of the foundation, the core around which the wool is woven. That is why it creates more problems, as the water reaches it a lot faster than a true secondary backing. My experience with pre-spraying prior to cleaning, is that a pre-sprayed carpet will let in more water than one realizes (due to wetting agents in pre-spray.)

So ofer, would you of just ran a rinse at 150
psi?

Yes. When I had rugs where I was really concerned with shrinkage and the cost of replacement was more than my yearly income.You bet
Ran a "WoolSafe" cleaner rinse. Wet pass only on the pull, etc.
Worked very well. If things seemed to be safe I would increase the pressure slightly or slow the movement.

 

[The Great Oz]

The identification key is that it smelled like wool when wet. Plant fibers don't smell like wool. The problem is that we're seeing "woolenized" (bleached and tumbled) jute blended with low quality wool to make carpet that has a look people want at a very low cost to the retailer.

The buyer hears wool blend and doesn't know enough to avoid the plant fiber content, just like they don't know enough to avoid high acrylic content. We've found that a rug with less than 50% wool in a wool/jute rug will be so likely to shrink that only those proficient in cleaning jutes and sisals should work with it.

 

[ruff]

Bryan, are you talking both wall to wall and rugs?

How do you deal with it in plant, short of tacking to floor or heavy weights while hanging in the drying room?

What do you do on location?

 

[The Great Oz]

Yep, both rugs and wall-to-wall. Some makers are good about telling people the percentage of jute, others are not. Silly rich people often buy things that are difficult to maintain because they don't take the time to find out anything beyond the warm and fuzy sales terms like "sustainable" and "eco-friendly" that are used to sell plant fiber rugs.

Cleaning this type of carpet installed on-location we can either use a low moisture method like the Rotary DriMaster or suggest the customer pop over to the Home Depot and get some Host. Even if installed correctly a carpet with a higher than 50% plant fiber will jump off the tack strip or pull the strip off the floor when it gets even a little wet.

Shrinky rugs are brought to the shop to be tacked out for cleaning. We "accidently" cleaned a wool/jute blend on-location yesterday and will be picking it up today to block out the ripples. No profit there.

 

[Ken Snow]

"Shrinky rugs are brought to the shop to be tacked out for cleaning. We "accidently" cleaned a wool/jute blend on-location yesterday and will be picking it up today to block out the ripples. No profit there."

Yep- been there done that Bryan!