45 vs 47 blower

[idreadnought]

There are different reasons that tm manufactures use 47 blowers.

In the case of a cds machine it makes increasing airflow easier because you are limited to the ability to change pulleys and such. In a cds the blower turns about 2800 rpm (factory max is 3600 rpm) this creates much less airflow and also lowers max hgs.

In the case of a slide in the number one reason that manufactures use a 47 is for heat. they can spin the thing really slow which cause the highest temp rise and create more heat for the blower hx (yes this is correct, ask an engineer why) Also by running the blower slow you will in theory extend the life. however by running it slow you are increasing temps so in theory it could wear out faster.

The performer 405 in some peoples opinion the best machine ever made for carpet cleaning. Prochem uses a 47 blower to create the 405. they however turn the blower very slow to create heat and prochems suggested vac release is 12hg.

This is my take, if you are running a machine that is directly coupled to an air cooled motor then get a 45 and run the thing full blast. It will create almost 400 cfm without restriction. And more airflow will go through the wand lips when on the carpet because of the higher rated hgs (up to 16) This also is considering that your are not needing heat from the blower.

If you need more heat and have a machine that needs a blower heat exchanger then get a machine that belt drives a 47 that turns about 2800 rpm. You will sacrifice a little from the loss of hgs but it wont affect your performance much.

In my opinion you will have a hard time getting much improvement over either setup without using something bigger than 2 inch hose.


Finally, just buy the dam 2545 machine and let your cleaning professions get to work. Btw, if you call them chimps, and treat them like chimps then you will get the hassles and the quality of work that chimps provide! Of all my years on here I have and will never refer to an employee as a chimp. If you ever talked to me about how easy my life is as an owner you would see why.

 

[Duane Oxley]

"All things being equal"...

They never are equal, unless you literally take one blower off of the same machine and replace it directly with the other for evaluation purposes. The truth is that any system that's designed well, will be built around what it's components can do. And a 47 and a 45 or equivalent have different performance spec's. That much is obvious.

A large part of this controversy, for lack of a better way to say it, stems from the fact that most truckmounts today are heat exchange systems that use blower exhaust for heat gain. They therefore interfere with blower airflow in some manner, by definition. And no two manufacturers have truly the same parameters in this regard. But one thing is clear: A system that does use blower exhaust for heat gain vs. one that does not use it for heat gain are... different from each other. (I bring this up because of the mention of an El Diablo, mainly.)

So, "all" 45 blower systems can't really be compared. "All" 47 blower systems can't be compared. And so it follows that 45's and 47's can't really be compared except in approximates, which is, by definition, not ultimately accurate.

But one thing can be considered: Free air flow vs. under load air flow of blowers allowed to do what they do at peak RPM with an assumption of zero back pressure. And here's a common- sense clue for you: The port size of a 45 blower is larger than the 2" hose that is the most common one used in truck mount- to- wand connections. And the port of a 47 is even larger.

So what does this really mean? Simple: That 2" hose contributes restriction upon both blowers, but it contributes MORE on a 47, because a 47 is trying to pull more airflow through that relatively small passageway.

Practically speaking, that difference between the two can be seen by the system owner (on the vacuum gauge) as a higher reading on a 47- based system that has nothing connected to it (i.e., no hoses, no wand, just a 2" port) than on a 45- based system. That reading is an indication of what I refer to as "consumed available lift". In other words, if the system has a vacuum relief set at, say 15", that is it's "available lift". It's the amount of available force that the system has to pull airflow. And if it's reading 5" with nothing connected, then there is actually just 10" left for actually moving airflow through the hoses and wand.

So, a 47 will read higher than a 45, because the 47 is trying to pull more airflow and encountering more resistance as a result.

When would this not be true? If the 47 was turning at a lower RPM that reduced it's CFM as a result, to the point that it moved the same CFM as a 45.

The thing is that the 2" hose is "key". (And in truth, a lot of systems these days still use 1.5" "whip hoses" with 1.5" wands, which makes the situation even more critical. It really doesn't matter if the system is running 2.5" hose for the first 100 or so feet. What matters is what the smallest point along the way (including the area of the wand slot) is. That is what you might consider as the "ultimate orifice" that the blower is dealing with. (Yes, 2.5" hose does help vacuum by reducing resistance until "later", and therefore, preserving the "available lift" as a result. But we're talking strictly blower vs. orifice size here.)

The simple fact of the matter is this: A 47, turning at the peak RPM suggested by the manufacturer attempts to move so much air through the hose and wand, that it generates more resistance and ultimately wastes more available lift than a 45 as a result.

But you may find a 47- based system that has been designed to run at a relatively low RPM so that it's performance is similar to a 45. But why spend the money for larger components only to have them "act like" smaller ones?

IMO, a 45 is the largest blower suited for single- wand systems which have been designed to let their blowers run at peak performance.

 

[Larry Cobb]

that difference between the two can be seen by the system owner (on the vacuum gauge) as a higher reading on a 47- based system that has nothing connected to it (i.e., no hoses, no wand, just a 2" port) than on a 45- based system. That reading is an indication of what I refer to as "consumed available lift". In other words, if the system has a vacuum relief set at, say 15", that is it's "available lift". It's the amount of available force that the system has to pull airflow. And if it's reading 5" with nothing connected, then there is actually just 10" left for actually moving airflow through the hoses and wand.

So, a 47 will read higher than a 45, because the 47 is trying to pull more airflow and encountering more resistance as a result. . . .

What matters is what the smallest point along the way (including the area of the wand slot) is. That is what you might consider as the "ultimate orifice" that the blower is dealing with.

The simple fact of the matter is this: A 47, turning at the peak RPM suggested by the manufacturer attempts to move so much air through the hose and wand, that it generates more resistance and ultimately wastes more available lift than a 45 as a result.

IMO, a 45 is the largest blower suited for single- wand systems which have been designed to let their blowers run at peak performance.

Good explanation Duane.

The biggest restriction in the TM vacuum system IS the wand slot.

Whichever system can generate the highest lift @ the wand slot . . .

will remove the most dirty solution from the carpet.

Ultimately, lift @ the wand, while on the carpet, is the KEY parameter.

Higher lift is the reason the #4MR (#45) blower outperformed the higher HP #47 TM in our testing.

Larry

P.S. "12 inches of lift" does not make a high performing TM

 

[ruff]

" It really doesn't matter if the system is running 2.5" hose for the first 100 or so feet. What matters is what the smallest point along the way (including the area of the wand slot) is. That is what you might consider as the "ultimate orifice" that the blower is dealing with. (Yes, 2.5" hose does help vacuum by reducing resistance until "later", and therefore, preserving the "available lift" as a result. But we're talking strictly blower vs. orifice size here.)

Duane or Larry or whoever understands it, could you please expound on that point.

How would running the first 100 feet of hose in 2.5" and an extra 50 of 2" hose (as opposed to straight 2" all the way), help in performance and why?

And if it does, could you give us a very rough percentage figure on it's airflow or lift improvement?.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Duane or Larry or whoever understands it, could you please expound on that point.

How would running the first 100 feet of hose in 2.5" and an extra 50 of 2" hose (as opposed to straight 2" all the way), help in performance and why?

And if it does, could you give us a very rough percentage figure on it's airflow or lift improvement?.

Yes.

Because it offers less restriction than 2", the 2.5" will result in less consumption of available lift. (Less "loss" of lift.)

Very rough... You'd prevent to consumption / loss of about 2" to 3", compared to running the first 100 in 2".

 

[bob vawter]

HEY CHRIS...bring that Genie back up here....
we'ze gotta put a 45 back in it.....you heard Larry!!!

 

[Duane Oxley]

HEY CHRIS...bring that Genie back up here....
we'ze gotta put a 45 back in it.....you heard Larry!!!

Hey, Bawb. How fast does that 47 turn on the Steam Genie in question?

 

[bob vawter]

well lets see.......my hi-side idle is right at 1600 RPM's.....i'm turning a 6" pulley on the driveshaft...then a 4" pulley on the blower....so would that be a THIRD faster than motor RPM???
1600
533
_______
2133 BLOWER RPM?

 

[clean image]

Times PI eqailal circumference

1600Equals 2411 give or take

 

[GCCLee]

HEY CHRIS...bring that Genie back up here....
we'ze gotta put a 45 back in it.....you heard Larry!!!

Umm, No! Mine!

 

[GCCLee]

Hey, Bawb. How fast does that 47 turn on the Steam Genie in question?

Thanks for asking this Duane, I had forgotten and was honestly afraid to ask again.

I wrote it down this time : )

Btw: I run 2" all the way to a Hybrid Glided GreenHorn or Rotovac, unless I am doing stairs or just want to be slow. Then I add a 25' 1 1/2" whip to use a scratcher.

" Free air flow vs. under load air flow of blowers "
I always try to keep mine under some sort of load, being a wand attached or a plug with many air flow holes drilled in it. I do not like it when the blower "Free Air flow" screams unrestricted.

I guess my question is,
Is Free Air Flow through a blower harder on it vs Under load air flow?


Chris

 

[Art Kelley]

HEY CHRIS...bring that Genie back up here....
we'ze gotta put a 45 back in it.....you heard Larry!!!

You got that right Bob. This thread is turning into the theatre of the absurd. Forget about my 56 blower running at 16" of lift and 500 cfms for 10000 hours with no problems from the weak link electric clutch, or a V/AT with #6 blowers and 600 cms, we need to focus on the 220 cfm limitations on the wand head for best results. We should go to a 33 blower like Marty had on his old TCS. Or better yet a Bane machine.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I guess my question is,
Is Free Air Flow through a blower harder on it vs Under load air flow?


Chris

What's "free flow", Chris?
does that mean there's always open holes in the system somewhere?
if so....Did Bob tell you that's better than a good quality spring relief valve?


to answer your question, blowers are VERY durable ..most durable major component on a TM
lasting many MANY thousands of hours with only minimal care .
matter of fact, in 23 years full time CCing I've only had one blower go down..and that was because some DUMBAZZ didn't tighten the drain plug tight enough and it ran dry for a WEEK before it seized ...i won't mention who that DUMBAZZ was...


so as far as blower life, there's little to worry about either way
'cides, the way Bob sets up his Genie blowers (running at less than 1/2 capacity) the blower will out live your grandkids if you just keep oil in it and give it shot of grease in the bearings once a month


..L.T.A.

 

[Dolly Llama]

We should go to a 33 blower like Marty had on his old TCS. Or better yet a Bane machine.

or a porty on the porch ??


..L.T.A.

 

[Art Kelley]

or a porty on the porch ??


..L.T.A.

With one vac motor turned off.

 

[Jimmy L]

Just how does a WM with a 56 blower have 16 lift and my cleanco only rated to 12 lift?

TELL ME I WANNA KNOW!

 

[Art Kelley]

Just how does a WM with a 56 blower have 16 lift and my cleanco only rated to 12 lift?

TELL ME I WANNA KNOW!

I wonder too. I remember Rex Tyrus mentioning his Cleanco could only deliver 12" lift. I thought that was sad and pathetic. Oh well. I guess WM had better engineering.

 

[Chris A]

I wonder too. I remember Rex Tyrus mentioning his Cleanco could only deliver 12" lift. I thought that was sad and pathetic. Oh well. I guess WM had better engineering.

Arts vac guage starts at 4!

 

[juniorc82]

Ok turds.... since the 45 47 debate has been gang banged to a bloody pulp let me ask this question. Going beyond the 47/4008 blowers into the 56's and 59 blowers what increase in performance and capability do people with the number 5 blowers enjoy?

 

[Jimmy L]

And you think pumping water into a vulcan 's blower to cool it so it pulls 20 hg's is a good thing?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The myth that some of the small machine manufacturers promote is that blowers bigger than a 45 are "too big" is based on their expected limitations of 2" vacuum hose.

They promote the ideal of the 2.5" blower plumbing outperforming 3", 4", and (gasp!)5" blowers. I've heard that argument before.

A certain famous Indianapolis manufacturer uses "perfectly balanced to 2" hose" 3M Sutorbilt. Yes a 33 has 2" plumbing, nobody needs anything bigger, or so I heard.

I'm sure some of the manufacturers here are just as sincere as Bill Bane...good guys. Each just needs to ride along for a week on a bigger rig to experience just what that extra power really does.

 

[ruff]

Ok turds.... what ... do people with the number 5 blowers enjoy?

Pride of ownership?

 

[Out of Character - 0]

I believe the Cleanco spin's the blower faster than the W/M which requires more hp and therefor a lower vac limit. I'm sure that your Cleanco will pull more than 12 as long as your using a 6 or 7 rib belt. The Wm with the 6" clutch is rated for 13-14 however Art and myself run higher cause we dgas

 

[dealtimeman]

The lower lift setting is just built in protection. You should be able to adjust your relief valve and set at what you want within manufacturer suggested min and max.

I see brand new prochems and hydra masters all the time set at 12 and 13 from the factory and most guys run them that way.

 

[Chris A]

I got a built in "vac relief" somewhere in my CDS system that I can't track down that wont let me get more than 14 hg even with the vac relief cranked shut. Works pretty well actually!

 

[Mikey P]

They were on the back/narrow side if the waste tank, beh ING your head when I ran CDS's. Super simple design

 

[Jimmy L]

Oh I can increase my lift on my cleanco but instead of replacing my 120 inch 6 ribbed serpentine belt every 6 months I'll be doing it monthly.

At $60 a pop.

 

[Larry Cobb]

I see brand new prochems and hydra masters all the time set at 12 and 13 from the factory and most guys run them that way.

This is what unsuspecting buyers get . . .

when they trust "brand name' mfgs.

Larry

 

[realclean]

My question is, in order to get the benefit of a 2 1/2" hose, would you not need to have a 2 1/2" opening on the waste tank? and also would all the plumbing from the blower to the

tank also need to be at least 2 1/2"?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

In Theory, yes.

In practice, it helps anyway.