45 vs 47 blower

[Jim Martin]

My question is, in order to get the benefit of a 2 1/2" hose, would you not need to have a 2 1/2" opening on the waste tank? and also would all the plumbing from the blower to the

tank also need to be at least 2 1/2"?

My thermalwave is plumbed 3 inch from the blower to the waste tank and 3 inch from the waste tank to the filter box....
the filter box is plumbed at a 2.5 opening...it runs a Gardner Denver Sutorbilt 45 blower and I have the relief valve set at 11/12..and even running a Hoss with all long jet bars
my carpets are just damp when I finish a room...

I run a 150 feet of 2 inch hose...anything longer then that I have 50 foot of 2.5 hose... broke into 2....25 foot sections so I don't have to pull off more then I need....

I do not run it on High...I always clean on medium speed....the engine speed on the GM..Vortex..1.6L engine on medium is 1900 RPM's....

My 570 is plumbed pretty much the same way...except it is running a a Gardner Denver triflow blower...I have the relief valve set dead on 11 and get better dry times with it then I do the Thermalwave....the 570 has a Kubota engine....RPM's are about the same as the thermalwave when I have it running...

Doubt I am going to get much more from a 47 blower....If I do...not enough to notice a huge difference....

what everyone seems to be missing is that you can only suck so much shit threw a straw....the object... to make sure that your straw is sucking to its peak preformance..and not getting choked down.....

 

[Art Kelley]

Ok turds.... since the 45 47 debate has been gang banged to a bloody pulp let me ask this question. Going beyond the 47/4008 blowers into the 56's and 59 blowers what increase in performance and capability do people with the number 5 blowers enjoy?

In the real world of day to day carpet cleaning, when blower filters aren't cleaned for months at a time, when lint filters that are filled after one hour are stuffed and ignored for three hours while more rooms are completed and, indeed, not changed even for the next two or three jobs, when you have to go into a basement 150 feet from the van and pull out water, you want all the vac power available.

 

[SamIam]

Hey Jim What thermalwave do you have

I though they all had 5.3 blowers 525 cfm????

that would be a lot bigger than a 4.5 blower!

http://www.sapphirescientific.com/Uploads/Document/BLUEline/49-002_THERMALWAVE_5MRevB.pdf


And the 570 is 408 blower that bigger than a 47 ?????
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[FredC]

Wouldn't matter. The lift loss due to the increased velocity of moving the additional air through a 2" hose (or the wand slot) has already defined in this thread, despite the lack of formulas/math/equations, as a rate negating any potential performance increases using anything other than a 45 blower. Those that have one may even want to slow it down a bit.................

 

[Jim Martin]

Hey Jim What thermalwave do you have

I though they all had 5.3 blowers 525 cfm????

that would be a lot bigger than a 4.5 blower!

http://www.sapphirescientific.com/Uploads/Document/BLUEline/49-002_THERMALWAVE_5MRevB.pdf


And the 570 is 408 blower that bigger than a 47 ?????
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When I got the Thermalwave I was told it was a 45....never really dug into it because it did not matter....I did not specify the size on the 570...only what kind...
because the point is...

what everyone seems to be missing is that you can only suck so much shit threw a straw....the object... to make sure that your straw is sucking to its peak preformance..and not getting choked down.....

So lets get away from all the shop talk and back yard testing and lets get into the real world of cleaning and machine performance........

Here's a question....with a glided wand....how often does your relief valve actually have to open up because you maxed it's setting....
same question....using a un-glided wand..

 

[GCCLee]

Vac relief, lol
Its called lifting the wand : )

I love a good bog down, especially if theres people staring or standing at the rig. The expressions are priceless.

 

[SamIam]

When I got the Thermalwave I was told it was a 45....never really dug into it because it did not matter....I did not specify the size on the 570...only what kind...
because the point is...



So lets get away from all the shop talk and back yard testing and lets get into the real world of cleaning and machine performance........

Here's a question....with a glided wand....how often does your relief valve actually have to open up because you maxed it's setting....
same question....using a un-glided wand..

Not often both are set at 15 and will get there with an unglided wand with 100 ft 2in hose. and lots of pull back.

They usually sit around 11 or 12 with filters 2 25 section of 2.5 inch hose and a 40 to 50 foot lead 2 inch hose with a glide.

Did some gluing recently raised it from 10 to 11 to 12ish. glued all cuffs to hoses a lot less leakage.


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[dealtimeman]

Wouldn't matter. The lift loss due to the increased velocity of moving the additional air through a 2" hose (or the wand slot) has already defined in this thread, despite the lack of formulas/math/equations, as a rate negating any potential performance increases using anything other than a 45 blower. Those that have one may even want to slow it down a bit.................

Lol, I think your on to something Fred.

 

[Duane Oxley]

The myth that some of the small machine manufacturers promote is that blowers bigger than a 45 are "too big" is based on their expected limitations of 2" vacuum hose.

No, it's based upon my experience building systems that don't use blower exhaust for heat, that therefore let the blower do what it's designed to do, parameter- wise.

45's were the industry standard for dual wand systems before heat exchangers came into prominence.

But I do agree that on most HX systems, 45's are definitely NOT dual- wand blowers and 47's perform more like 45's.

I remember dismantling a Power Clean Victory (47 blower) once (in order to replace the engine that had gone bad) and being surprised to find an "orifice" in the elbow connected to the blower inlet. That orifice was basically marquis diamond- shaped and narrowed the airway there to just over an inch wide and just over 2" long. I called them to tell them that there was a problem with the part and they said "No, it's supposed to be that way." Subsequent inspection of a Genesis 56 showed the same thing.

Interesting note that they measured vacuum on the far side of the orifice...

 

[Larry Cobb]

I remember dismantling a Power Clean Victory (47 blower) once (in order to replace the engine that had gone bad) and being surprised to find an "orifice" in the elbow connected to the blower inlet. That orifice was basically marquis diamond- shaped and narrowed the airway there to just over an inch wide and just over 2" long. I called them to tell them that there was a problem with the part and they said "No, it's supposed to be that way." Subsequent inspection of a Genesis 56 showed the same thing.

Interesting note that they measured vacuum on the far side of the orifice...

That is interesting, considering that 1" x 2" is only 2 sq. in. of blower intake area for the #47 blower.

We do utilize 4.43 sq. in. of area for our #4MR (#45) blower inlet.

That is 221% of the flow area on the #47 blower Duane measured.

Interesting, but poorly thought-out design ideas.

Larry

 

[Duane Oxley]

To be fair, I didn't measure it at the time. And what I related above is what I remember. But if it's off, it's not so by much.

I've seen Prochems use similar "logic". One we worked on a year or so ago had a 4M blower with appropriate diameter connection to the tank, but a 2" diameter tube coming from the tank (to the wand port), that snaked (was bent in such a way that it had a couple of short curves or sweeps) through the machine console.

And there are pictures of one of Larry's systems that show a 47 blower with a bushing in it to reduce the plumbing size on the intake side.

It's simply common in HX systems. Even if the blower exhaust isn't used.

Doesn't have to be, IMO, but it is. But that's another discussion entirely and not related to the topic...

 

[Shane T]

This is what I took off my Victory. First pic is a comparison of the blower inlet opening before and after I redesigned it. This is what I put back on the blower. The restriction inside the recovery tank port was almost as bad. This was after I opened it up.

 

[Johnny]

Those pics look like my Freedom 47. What did you use to open the tank? I would be afraid a grinder would leave particles that would be sucked into the blower.

 

[Shane T]

Those pics look like my Freedom 47. What did you use to open the tank? I would be afraid a grinder would leave particles that would be sucked into the blower.

Since its SS it wasn't easy. First I cut as much out using a saws-all, using different angles meeting as near to outside edge as I could. The I used my die-grinder to finish it out. I used a shop vac and compressed air to clean out the debrie.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Shane;

That design is poorly thought out.

Having that restriction in the recovery tank inlet . . .

would generate extra foam in the tank

from the increased velocity of the airstream.

Larry

 

[Shane T]

Shane;

That design is poorly thought out.

Having that restriction in the recovery tank inlet . . .

would generate extra foam in the tank

from the increased velocity of the airstream.

Larry

Foam was never a problem. The restriction engineered into this system made it impossible to get anything close to acceptable blower belt longevity. Pictured above is what I found on the suction side of the system. The inside diameter of the silencer inlet and outlet was down to about 2". After getting rid of all these restrictions the cfm increased significantly and have nearly 2000 hrs on the current belts.

 

[Art Kelley]

Foam was never a problem. The restriction engineered into this system made it impossible to get anything close to acceptable blower belt longevity. Pictured above is what I found on the suction side of the system. The inside diameter of the silencer inlet and outlet was down to about 2". After getting rid of all these restrictions the cfm increased significantly and have nearly 2000 hrs on the current belts.

Foam. LOL. Has anyone with a truckmount had an issue with foam problems in the last 45 years? But it is insidious that TM manufacturers restrict the vacuum flow in HX systems order to put "numbers on the board" with regard to temperature readings. In the real world of carpet cleaning, super high heat is the least important consideration in the cleaning pie.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Air leaks below the water line WILL cause foam.

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[thecleaningdude]

Don't want to hijack this thread, but is it a big mistake to consider a 33 or 36 machine?

What's the MB consensus on the best entry/smaller size TM?

Thanks!

 

[Mikey P]

Any thing smaller than a 45 and you might as well use a portable

 

[thecleaningdude]

What machine(s) would you and other MB'ers suggest?

Any thing smaller than a 45 and you might as well use a portable

 

[juniorc82]

Damon, I ran 2 different 33 blower truckmounts before getting my 47. Huge difference, even running my buddies 45 was a huge change over a 33. However despite what king mike says there is a big difference between a 33 or 36 and a portable. If most of your jobs are residential and no more than 100-125 foot hose runs you will be ok if you take a couple dry strokes and run a small wand jetted to only like 4 or 6 flow. A small truckmount will also be way more efficient than running a portable and give you better heat. I would say if you are really strapped for cash getting into a small truckmount would be a much better way to go than the electric truckmount (or portable mounted in a van as they call it here). However if you can muster up the extra cash get into a number 4 blower machine. I immediately noticed a big change in dry times, high flow wands, better heat, longer hose runs, and I could clean much faster because the machine was pulling more out.

 

[Duane Oxley]

If nothing else, I hope that this thread does illustrate my point regarding blower airflow restriction on HX systems.

But something else is also evident in retrospect, I think. And that is that even among HX systems manufacturers, the same blower does NOT perform the same. A great case in point is illustrated by the pictures above of the PowerClean vacuum "orifice". The area of their air passageway very likely varied even from one machine to another. Larry's systems, though incorporating similar logic, and definitely more consistent from one system of a model to another, would still be different from the standpoint of passageway diameter va. blower port size alone. Prochems would be different from the other two I mentioned.

And that's assuming that the blowers RPM's are the same... which they are not.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here: On typical HX systems, a 47 performs like a 45 that's allowed to run the way it was designed to, a 45 performs like a 36, and so on.

 

[juniorc82]

duane I would tend to agree. I had a 33 blower steam action that drew heat only off the engine and a white magic 33 that drew both enging and blower exhaust and the steamaction had much more vacuum because the blower was not choked down. On my 47 machine it too is only the engine exhaust and is ran around 3400 and sucks like a vegas hooker

 

[thecleaningdude]

Thanks for the feedback. What machines do you like?

Would like to hear the same from other members as well.

I've looked at the Rage and SS370. The 370 seems solid, but near $20K if I'm not mistaken. The Rage seems affordable, but too small? Also looking at some of the smaller builders as well.

Damon, I ran 2 different 33 blower truckmounts before getting my 47. Huge difference, even running my buddies 45 was a huge change over a 33. However despite what king mike says there is a big difference between a 33 or 36 and a portable. If most of your jobs are residential and no more than 100-125 foot hose runs you will be ok if you take a couple dry strokes and run a small wand jetted to only like 4 or 6 flow. A small truckmount will also be way more efficient than running a portable and give you better heat. I would say if you are really strapped for cash getting into a small truckmount would be a much better way to go than the electric truckmount (or portable mounted in a van as they call it here). However if you can muster up the extra cash get into a number 4 blower machine. I immediately noticed a big change in dry times, high flow wands, better heat, longer hose runs, and I could clean much faster because the machine was pulling more out.

 

[GCCLee]

Who was that masked man?

I'd like to shake his hand!

 

[Russ T.]

I told him in a PM to consider my Chemtex Panther 20. It's basic but that can be a good thing sometimes. It's got the Roots 45 blower, Hypro water pump, and they are driven by a 20 HP Kohler Command Pro. Only @ 875 hours mounted in a nice clean 2006 Chevy 1500 with reels, tanks, hoses(with new Flash Cuffs). I've been asking $15,900. The van blue books @ 9K and there's @ 15K worth of equipment in it that I'd like to get half back out of. Am I high on my asking price? I haven't been really aggressive trying to sell, only posted on Olson's site for 30 days. It expired and still waffling whether to sell or not. I'm sure it would be worth more to me when the Cleanco goes down. Any feedback on the machine would be helpful to the cleaningdude I'm sure. It's been reliable for me.


The Clean Machine

 

[juniorc82]

I would recommend a, cobb truck mount , an e z truckmount, or a Judson. All of these units are easy to work on and ll of which you can get into a # 4 blower machine for around 10-15k depending on what you want http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Jon_Coret/media/machine_zps4367d6f0.jpg.html?sort=2&o=26 here is a picture of my e z machine. 34 horse 47 blower. well under 15k.