HEAT exchangers V.S Propane

[Bjorn]

Is the heat you get from a heat exchanger free?

Could propane heat actually be less expensive than a machine with a HX that will match the same performance

Could propane be less expensive and maintain a higher temperature

 

[John LaBarbera]

Is the heat you get from a heat exchanger free?

Could propane heat actually be less expensive than a machine with a HX that will match the same performance

Could propane be less expensive and maintain a higher temperature

Yes?

 

[dealtimeman]

It could be yes but most of the time no.

Depends on the setup of the machine and if you have to run a higher rpm or increase load to obtain the btus and achieve the temp rise desired.

With my dd my heat is "free" at optimal rpms set for vacuum. The fuel is being used to turn the pumps, what I do with the exhaust is irrelevant to the basic operation of the machine, which is to spray and suck.

If I was to get a si, I would very much entertain the idea of propane burner as a heat source.

 

[dgardner]

Is the heat you get from a heat exchanger free?

No - there is a cost involved. Maintenance at the very least. If a larger engine and/or blower is used and artificially loaded to produce the heat, then the cost to run could be substantial.

Could propane heat actually be less expensive than a machine with a HX that will match the same performance

Probably not. If you think it can I'd like to see your math.

Could propane be less expensive and maintain a higher temperature

Higer temp? Absolutely. Less expensive? Again, probably not.

Now, if you factor in the total lifecycle cost, and realize that many HX machines are very complex, with resulting high maintenance/repair costs, and count lost revenue due to downtime, you may have a valid argument.

 

[Bjorn]

Lets say it takes your machine 15 minutes to heat up to cleaning temp

four jobs a day thats 5 hours a week or 260 hours a year just warming up your machine

hour much extra fuel is that burned just warming up your machine.

you know for that free heat

 

[Duane Oxley]

Here's one angle to consider...

The amount of propane a system uses for heat is actually variable, depending upon how hot you like to run it, your flow rate (higher flow rate requires more BTU's since the GPM is more), the efficiency of the heater and even your wand keying habits. (The more you key / flush and go over an area more thoroughly, the more you will burn in a given amount of time...)

But...

For the sake of discussion, let's say you're burning 1 GPH of propane per hour of actual machine time. And you're working 40 hours a week. Out of that 40, your actual machine time is less than 40, due to travel time between jobs, setting up and breaking down, discussions with customers, etc. Your actual machine time will be more like 25 hours out of 40.

So, 4 weeks a month, equals 4 x 25 hours, or 100 hours a month.

100 hours x 1 GPH = 100 gallons of propane.

Propane is currently about $3.50 per gallon, so you're spending $350 per month, based upon the above figures.

12 months x $350 = $4,200 per year

For a typical exchanger to deliver the same temperature of 200 degrees, at a flow rate of 2 GPM, you'll spend $20,000 for that system. And, if you're like most owners, you'll keep that system for 4 years or less.

A propane system that delivers that kind of heat will typically cost you about $14,000 (a Dominator 2036 is $13,500). So, it will cost you $6,000 LESS up front than an exchanger system that can produce even similar heat.

Based upon the above, it will take you 1.4 years to recuperate the extra costs of that comparable heat exchange system based upon fuel usage alone.

The increased complexity of HX systems (all HX systems that deliver heat in the above- mentioned range have at least 2 exchangers and 2 sets of sensors, 2 sets of controls, etc...) results in increased maintenance requirements as well, which have to be considered... especially as the system gets older.

In my experience, at 2 years and further, maintenance requirements increase noticeably... And the increased requirements of the typical HX system really become a factor at that point.

 

[lance]

Or you could raise your prices to help cover the costs associated with running your business. Or you could hire a helper to do more jobs with less work and make more money that would help cover business costs. Or you could raise your prices AND hire a helper to make more money that will help cover the costs of the business.

Or you could stop smoking and drinking which would really save you alot of money without doing one thing to your business.

I think one of the most dependable systems would be to have a HX TM with a diesel heater from Duane O. You could high-flow dual-wand whenever you wanted to and if for some reason the HX ever quit then the post heater could be used instead.

And diesel can be found at almost any gas station in the middle of the night. And i think it also burns hotter than propane.

You do one commercial job a month that gives you a $1000 profit every month for two years......and then you have 24,000 bucks to pay of your TM and have money for repairs, fuel, etc.

I'm sure there are cleaners on this board that do that very easily.

 

[bob vawter]

Lets say it takes your machine 15 minutes to heat up to cleaning temp

four jobs a day thats 5 hours a week or 260 hours a year just warming up your machine

hour much extra fuel is that burned just warming up your machine.

you know for that free heat

whada dunce!!!!
a REAL machine warms up on the way to the job!
PLUS theres no chance i'm gonna burn Mrs phiffs house down.....OR electrocute little Billy in a mud puddle OR mysef from a frayed wire on the instrument panel.........

'cides real machines are WELDED together....not glued....

I THINK i shall have ANOTHER "jus for ODIN" sale real soon!

 

[ACE]

Nothing is free. I would like to put some of the cost of powering the machine on my customers bill like Terje .

 

[Dolly Llama]

guess it depends what system.

the liquid transfer type are the most bullet proof reliable and would be the clear winner as far as "free" heat.
But you're limited in heat output and limited to direct drives ..cause you ain't gonna get near enough heat out of water cooled slide in engine.

all the headaches I hear about the exhaust HX'rs makes me think it ain't such a "free" heat
Whether or not there really is much of a savings over the life of the system, i don't know.
But personally, I much prefer the consistent and infinitely adjustable and instant heat flame fired burners deliver


ummm..Bob, are you concerned about using combustible gasses in your HOME???
I can show you plenty of pics of houses that blew to smithereens because of natural gas leaks and faulty appliances.
You got natgas in your home??? :shock:



..L.T.A.

 

[Mike Draper]

my butler would warm up on the way to my first job, and when I got there it would keep on running while I vacuumed and measured etc. just to keep it from cooling down, I would never shut the thing off in the winter. I run waaaay less fuel in my Judson than I ran in my butler. the performance in much better in the judson as well.

 

[KevinD]

Lets say it takes your machine 15 minutes to heat up to cleaning temp

four jobs a day thats 5 hours a week or 260 hours a year just warming up your machine

hour much extra fuel is that burned just warming up your machine.

you know for that free heat

Warm up? By time I prespray the 1st. room or 2 I am vaporizing water.

 

[Askal]

With my C4 I offset the propane use with better fuel consumption. We have a separate tank for the TM gas so it is easy to track. Compared to my Maxx470 Max 450 it is actually cheaper to run the Judson per hour including the propane not to mention less maintenance. Plus we have a 40 gallon propane tank so it needs filling less often than a 10 gal.

Al

 

[bob vawter]

guess it depends what system.

the liquid transfer type are the most bullet proof reliable and would be the clear winner as far as "free" heat.
But you're limited in heat output and limited to direct drives ..cause you ain't gonna get near enough heat out of water cooled slide in engine.

all the headaches I hear about the exhaust HX'rs makes me think it ain't such a "free" heat
Whether or not there really is much of a savings over the life of the system, i don't know.
But personally, I much prefer the consistent and infinitely adjustable and instant heat flame fired burners deliver


ummm..Bob, are you concerned about using combustible gasses in your HOME???
I can show you plenty of pics of houses that blew to smithereens because of natural gas leaks and faulty appliances.
You got natgas in your home??? :shock:



..L.T.A.

sure i has NG in my home Larr.....
but it's NOT by choice.......there have been numerous houses on the news everyday that are blown to smitherians because of gas.......
do you jus like to argue or jus to hear yorsef talk........... !gotcha!

 

[idreadnought]

One more factor that has not been mentioned yet. That is Labor cost, or time cost. A propane unit should be shutoff and re-lit at every job. The added up cost of that is huge over a several year period. Second the time it takes to fill the propane tank. Add those two extra time costs in on your anyalisis. My first TM was propane and it was a pia to do both those things. I would prefer less heat and not have either to deal with.

 

[Johnny]

I think one of the most dependable systems would be to have a HX TM with a diesel heater from Duane O.

Duane,

Do you sell a diesel heater to retrofit? Specs?

 

[bob vawter]

havin' RAN a diesel for over twenty years........
i never wanna SMELL lik Diesel....
ever again!

 

[steve g]

odin, a thought, I see your machine in that small ford whatever its called. I assume since you are using electric vac motors that the actual unit and its box don't weigh all that much. what if you made the unit so it could be mounted to the roof of the van. this way all the area could be used under it, have the waste tank all the way back on the left side of the unit, this would free up a ton of space. you would of course have to make the unit and rearrange all the parts so you could switch to a horizontal type setup but that shouldn't be hard.

 

[Mike Draper]

I keep my pilot light going all day. I got so tired of wating 30 minutes in the winter for my truck to produce hot water. Maybe it works in a warm climate, but propane is the way to go where I live. 85 gallon tank is the way to go!

 

[bob vawter]

I keep my pilot light going all day. I got so tired of wating 30 minutes in the winter for my truck to produce hot water. Maybe it works in a warm climate, but propane is the way to go where I live. 85 gallon tank is the way to go!

ever run out of propane...while on the job......?
seems like you'd be always planing ahead where the propane fillup depot is at.......

 

[Mike Draper]

Bob, I have an 85 gallon propane tank. You have to fill up 3x more than I do.

 

[bob vawter]

Bob, I have an 85 gallon propane tank. You have to fill up 3x more than I do.

they have propane fillups at the gas station....or do you make a special trip....?

 

[Mike Draper]

Many stations around here sell it. I make a special trip to one tha is 1.7 miles away. They give it to me for $2.00 gallon

 

[bob vawter]

ever worry about having enough or should you stop and get it.......ever run out on the job...on the OTHER side of town?

 

[Mike Draper]

No. How often would u run out of gas if you had an 85 gallon tank? If it was an inconvinience I wouldn't have done it.

 

[bob vawter]

How often would u run out of gas if you had an 85 gallon tank?

when you ran out?

 

[Bjorn]

odin, a thought, I see your machine in that small ford whatever its called. I assume since you are using electric vac motors that the actual unit and its box don't weigh all that much. what if you made the unit so it could be mounted to the roof of the van. this way all the area could be used under it, have the waste tank all the way back on the left side of the unit, this would free up a ton of space. you would of course have to make the unit and rearrange all the parts so you could switch to a horizontal type setup but that shouldn't be hard.

Give me the money and I will make it for you

 

[Mike Draper]

How often would u run out of gas if you had an 85 gallon tank?

when you ran out?

do you jus like to argue or jus to hear yorsef talk........... !gotcha!

 

[KevinD]

[/quote]
sure i has NG in my home Larr.....
but it's NOT by choice.......there have been numerous houses on the news everyday that are blown to smitherians because of gas.......
do you jus like to argue or jus to hear yorsef talk........... !gotcha![/quote]

You have a CHOICE.
Put in electric if you are so afraid of ng.

 

[bob vawter]

the difference clearly being.........

i don't drive my HOUSE up next to a custys home to clean........... :roll: