HEAT exchangers V.S Propane

[dgardner]

I keep my pilot light going all day. I got so tired of wating 30 minutes in the winter for my truck to produce hot water. Maybe it works in a warm climate, but propane is the way to go where I live. 85 gallon tank is the way to go!

Mike, does that mean you keep the propane valve turned on as you drive between jobs? Ever consider what would happen during a crash when the propane line gets cut and spews propane all over the inside of the van?

 

[Mike Draper]

I actually rinse the carpet rather than inject detergent into it.

 

[floorguy]

I keep my pilot light going all day. I got so tired of wating 30 minutes in the winter for my truck to produce hot water. Maybe it works in a warm climate, but propane is the way to go where I live. 85 gallon tank is the way to go!

Mike, does that mean you keep the propane valve turned on as you drive between jobs? Ever consider what would happen during a crash when the propane line gets cut and spews propane all over the inside of the van?

that arguement aside....

you do realize that the valve has a safety shut off, in the event it "spews" or "dumps" at a high rate

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

It will cost you about $26,000 a year more to clean with a heat exchange truck mount than if you cleaned with a Judson C-4 truck mount with propane.
A Judson C-4 will maintain 240 Degrees on a high-flow wand under commercial carpet cleaning conditions.
I've not yet seen a heat exchange truck mount with the Judson C-4 truck mount capability.

The Judson C-4 requires no preheating.
Start the engine, turn on the water heater and by the time that you walk to the wand and pull the trigger you've got 240 Degrees right then.
This fast heat is even faster than a unit with a flow fired system. The Judson C-4 has a thermostat controlled system.

 

[Bjorn]

b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FHTXwpVMvsb]


b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhti2xAB-Gkb]

 

[Art Kelley]

It will cost you about $26,000 a year more to clean with a heat exchange truck mount than if you cleaned with a Judson C-4 truck mount with propane.
.

Not until gasoline is $40/gallon Les. Right now I use 3000 gallons of gasoline to operate my WM Pro1200 every year. No propane, no kerosene, no monkeying around with a seperate heater. If my van starts then I am all set for the day. All this talk about complicated HX units. After 8000 hours on this machine I haven't had to do a thing to the heat system to keep it at 240 degrees. No switches, no sensors, just keep it from freezing in the winter. This is as simple as it gets. It costs a little more to choke the blower down to heat the blower HX, about 1.75 gallons/hour in actual use.

 

[Mike Draper]

he probably meant $2,600 a year. And, btw, Les was talking 240 ATW, not at the truck. Your white magic wont even get close. Put a temp gauge on your wand. To get your 240 at the machine your blower has to be under serious restriction for a while to get there. Butlers blower hx is the same. A blower only gets so hot.

 

[joeynbgky]

Not sure howbmuch a gallon propane is here. But it coats me about 11 bucks to fill up my belly mount tank I spend about 40_60 a month not bad

 

[Bill Bruders]

I'm uncertain how anyone any direct fired heating system can be less expensive that a quality HX unit to operate. I'd really like to see the math.

 

[steve g]

mike, how many machine hours are you seeing on average with that big propane tank. my hx machine uses about 1 gal/hr, when I used a propane machine way back in the day I would say they burned at least a gal of propane/hr that means my fuel costs would roughly double. so if you run 3 machines hours a day, that is an extra $120/mo in propane. seems to me that would buy and finance a more expensive HX machine along with any associated maintenance. plus you don't have to fill up, which in my case would mean me wasting about 45 mins of my time on every fill up, I try to make a minimum of $100/hr, you might as well add that to your costs too.

BTW my machine has 2500 hours and I can't think of ONE HX related part I have had to replace or maintain.

 

[Mike Draper]

I dont know yet, I've got 52 hours on my machine and haven't had to refill it yet. It's getting close. Why would I want to purchase a more expensive machine that will have more expensive maintenance down the road? Can you easily fix any thing on your pro chem without any help or special order parts? This will be the last truck mount I ever purchase for my business. If a motor wears out, I'll replace it in 2 hours, same with a pump, same with a blower. If a belt wears out, every auto parts store in town carries it. There is nothing else to replace other than a few small parts I can get any where at any time. When you guys have to purchase your new truck mount at 3,4,5-6000 or even 8000 hours for 20 to 30+ thousand, I'll still be running mine with a much smaller over all cost.

 

[Burtz]

a lot might have to do with the just fire up the propane and you got heat

and then with a HX running the engine for awhile ( not cleaning time ) getting the machine up to cleaning temps
with a proplane heat you don't need to warm up the machine while setting up. when yous not cleaning your not using propane.

 

[bob vawter]

a lot might have to do with the just fire up the propane and you got heat

and then with a HX running the engine for awhile ( not cleaning time ) getting the machine up to cleaning temps
with a proplane heat you don't need to warm up the machine while setting up. when yous not cleaning your not using propane.

ODI...errrrr Burtz........the HX gets hot ON THE WAY....to the job.......

 

[floorguy]

Ok take this for example....remember I bought this machine used...so yes it has something to say about how you take care of it....

its a PC everest with the carb nissan, and the 408 on it.....

now the previous owner let the exchangers clog....how much propane, or what ever can you buy for what are they $1200 for the SS ones X 2....

Thats $2400 for exchangers only...

there is some math for ya there

 

[GeneMiller]

it is cheaper in the long run with a hx. I have had both and tracked the numbers and i am way ahead of what i was spending with the burner. that does not figure in extra trips for propane. numbers can be manipulated to say anything you want. we don't wait for it to get hot we start cleaning behind the furniture, by the time we are done it's plenty hot to clean any carpet. the thread wasn't about which is hotter but which one is cheaper. hx is not free you pay up front, but if you get a good design it will last . i have had 0 problems with mine.
i did have problems with the burner and had to buy some parts.


gene

 

[steve g]

actually I had more problems with the propane heaters, than in the 2500 hours I have ran my machine. bad thermocouples, faulty control valves, having to light the stupid thing!!!!!! which requires me squatting down and possibly getting something on my clothes. not to mention the parts on those little giants are very delicate, an air mover falls on them and you got something that has to be fixed, an extra tank mounted to the van and extra room inside. a high quailty HX machine with a water softner will be less fuss and cheaper.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

he probably meant $2,600 a year. And, btw, Les was talking 240 ATW, not at the truck. Your white magic wont even get close. Put a temp gauge on your wand. To get your 240 at the machine your blower has to be under serious restriction for a while to get there. Butlers blower hx is the same. A blower only gets so hot.

No Mike. I meant $26,000 per year. What I’m talking about is taking advantage of a fully optimized cleaning system that uses a high flow wand and maintains 240 degrees under residential or commercial conditions. A lot of good things happen with high flow. It puts the heat on the carpet. There is a lot less heat lost through the skin of the pressure hose. It also allows you to clean more square feet per hour than with a standard wand. Now if you take full advantage of an optimized system, it can make you a lot of extra money.

 

[Duane Oxley]

... a fully optimized cleaning system that uses a high flow wand and maintains 240 degrees under residential or commercial conditions. A lot of good things happen with high flow. ... allows you to clean more square feet per hour than with a standard wand. Now if you take full advantage of an optimized system, it can make you a lot of extra money.

Amen...

 

[Luis Gomez]

... a fully optimized cleaning system that uses a high flow wand and maintains 240 degrees under residential or commercial conditions. A lot of good things happen with high flow. ... allows you to clean more square feet per hour than with a standard wand. Now if you take full advantage of an optimized system, it can make you a lot of extra money.

I have had a C-4 for 3 months only, 3 weeks ago I did a job that took 11 hrs to clean. The janitorial part it of it took 77 man hrs for a total of $2500.00. The carpet, upholstery and mattresses part, took two helpers and myself 33 hrs, the total ticket of the latter has $7500.00. Now, I did not run the wand or upholstery tool for the eleven hours, as I was also supervising the whole thing and we took 2 lunch breaks. The only reason I got this job was
because of the C-4 !! It will impress the customer. But more importantly It kicks ass. I do not
know the numbers as far as propane vs heat exchangers cost, and I don't care. As much as I
love my old Fox TM (w/ 2 heat exchangers) because it feed me for the last 11 yrs, I could have not done this job without Les' C-4.
Luis

PS. Sorry about the run off sentences, I'm on my third vodka martini.

 

[Johnny]

[quote="Leslie Judson Jones":1qdsj6dy]... a fully optimized cleaning system that uses a high flow wand and maintains 240 degrees under residential or commercial conditions. A lot of good things happen with high flow. ... allows you to clean more square feet per hour than with a standard wand. Now if you take full advantage of an optimized system, it can make you a lot of extra money.

The only reason I got this job was
because of the C-4 !! It will impress the customer. But more importantly It kicks ass.PS. Sorry about the run off sentences, I'm on my third vodka martini.[/quote:1qdsj6dy]

The C-4 is the nEw vOrTeX!

 

[joeynbgky]

I could see where the hx has advantages... But I cant afford a new saphire unit. Or I would probably have one! Now............ I think the LG does take up a lot of room. But thats ok..So if you guys pree-spray with a hydroforce....... you can't lay your pre-spray down cold can you? nope.. Thats were the LG comes into play. I run my tm's rpms all the way on low why i am prespraying.. Cant do that with a hx.. But Mr Brudders...... I would take a new machine for testing anytime you want to ship one my way!

I like how duane has hx, propane and oil fired units. TCS stopped there hx real quick for some reason.. Les use to have hx units... I think Judson, saphire and everyone should build one of each kind of unit. why not?

 

[Goldenboy]

T is tryin to brainwash all you freaks with his fuel savin POS no suck glorified porty. Put some fancy stickers on a Ninja and its the same crap T is producing. T's brilliant idea of puttin his porty in the little Frod vans is a great idea except you can not put a belley mount for propane. Also watch his price on WOC he does not include a heater with his machine. T has always bitched about Bait and Switchers then he pulls that crap. He has also sold three machines on this board plus a bunch of vac boosters and has yet to pay Mikey a dime for advertising. If I was a supplier I would be pissed. But T will play it off as no big deal and walk all over Mikey.


Golden Boy


.

 

[Mike Draper]

I could see where the hx has advantages... But I cant afford a new saphire unit. Or I would probably have one! Now............ I think the LG does take up a lot of room. But thats ok..So if you guys pree-spray with a hydroforce....... you can't lay your pre-spray down cold can you? nope.. Thats were the LG comes into play. I run my tm's rpms all the way on low why i am prespraying.. Cant do that with a hx.. But Mr Brudders...... I would take a new machine for testing anytime you want to ship one my way!

I like how duane has hx, propane and oil fired units. TCS stopped there hx real quick for some reason.. Les use to have hx units... I think Judson, saphire and everyone should build one of each kind of unit. why not?

when I pre-spray, I tun down my heat and the rpm's. My pre-spray never vaporizes on me with my hydroforce.

 

[woodsey]

There is another consideration with fired units, The engine does not have to be flogged to get heat into an exchanger and can be ran cooler with less stress and less rpm. I have the modified thermalwave and ran it this morning for 1 hr on a carpet job. I ran it on the upholstery setting and have 14 to 15 inches vac with 240 degree heat. The upholstery setting is just above idle. I dont know how to factor it in but the engine has to last longer and the fuel consumption has to be way down. Woodsey

 

[bob vawter]

you guys kill me........

 

[Bjorn]

what you got boob a 180 degree thermostat and a 14 hp clutch and a stick

1937 Russian Tractor technology

 

[Warren Wallace]

One more factor that has not been mentioned yet. That is Labor cost, or time cost. A propane unit should be shutoff and re-lit at every job. The added up cost of that is huge over a several year period. Second the time it takes to fill the propane tank. Add those two extra time costs in on your anyalisis. My first TM was propane and it was a pia to do both those things. I would prefer less heat and not have either to deal with.

It takes the same amount of time to fill my 26 gallon propane as it does to fill my gas tank, and how hard is it to lite a pilot :shock:

 

[Warren Wallace]

I dont know yet, I've got 52 hours on my machine and haven't had to refill it yet. It's getting close. Why would I want to purchase a more expensive machine that will have more expensive maintenance down the road? Can you easily fix any thing on your pro chem without any help or special order parts? This will be the last truck mount I ever purchase for my business. If a motor wears out, I'll replace it in 2 hours, same with a pump, same with a blower. If a belt wears out, every auto parts store in town carries it. There is nothing else to replace other than a few small parts I can get any where at any time. When you guys have to purchase your new truck mount at 3,4,5-6000 or even 8000 hours for 20 to 30+ thousand, I'll still be running mine with a much smaller over all cost.

Couldn't agree more shiteatinggrin

 

[Art Kelley]

Is the heat you get from a heat exchanger free?yes

Could propane heat actually be less expensive than a machine with a HX that will match the same performanceno

Could propane be less expensive and maintain a higher temperature]
no to less expensive, possibly to maintain higher heat, unless you're running low of propane on a job and you have three hours to go and it's late and all the propane stores are closed.[/quote

 

[Duane Oxley]

Is the heat you get from a heat exchanger free?yes

No. Absolutely NOT. You simply have to pay more for a HX system with comparable heat than a fuel- fired one giving comparable heat and flow. Pick any temperature / flow rate. It's true across the board.

[quote="Art Kelley":2oe1zagj]Could propane heat actually be less expensive than a machine with a HX that will match the same performanceno

Sure. When you factor in up- front cost of a HX system and the average that it takes about 1.5 years to break even from the standpoint of propane fuel savings, THEN add the higher maintenance requirements due to the higher complexity of most HX systems, AND the higher cost of "proprietary parts" associated with most HX systems, vs. "off- the- shelf" prices from Grainger, Home Depot, hardware stores, pressure washer repair and parts stores, etc., the increased maintenance costs of a typical HX system up quickly.

Example:

Propane: replace the gas valve, gas regulator and clean the burner jets is a "complete overhaul", costing easily less than $200, including labor

HX: sensors, relays, solenoids, multiple heat exchangers (each with their own sensor and control), all added up, plus labor, easily would cost $500 or more (labor costs associated with most HX systems are higher, because the way they are arranged requires substantially more time to do repair tasks)

Could propane be less expensive and maintain a higher temperature]
no to less expensive, possibly to maintain higher heat, unless you're running low of propane on a job and you have three hours to go and it's late and all the propane stores are closed.

[/quote:2oe1zagj]

Huh...?

The answer is, "Yes.". A good example is the Dominator 3047 that we build. It can maintain in excess of 220 degrees at the wand, at 600 PSI, with two wands running simultaneously, with #6 jets or equivalent, per wand. ("12 flow" total)

I challenge you to show me a new HX system that can do that the $17,500 price of a Dominator 3047..