HEAT exchangers V.S Propane

[Art Kelley]

[Huh...?

..

It's clear Duane is not familiar with a direct drive heat exchange system in a carpet cleaning van. He mentions "the higher maintenance requirements due to the higher complexity of most HX systems, AND the higher cost of "proprietary parts"". There is no complexity. Radiator fluid circulates through coils in one HX and hot air circulates through another HX if you have the additional blower HX like I do. There is no "sensors, relays, solenoids, multiple heat exchangers (each with their own sensor and control)", no "labor costs" for repairs, because there is no repairs. They just work and you don't even have to think about them. I'm at 8000 hours on my second WM machine with no repairs or even maintenance anticipated for the next ten years. My first WM (I still have) is at 20000 hours and the HX still works fine, no maintenence ever needed. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

 

[bob vawter]

No Art....they really don't get it!

 

[Duane Oxley]

[quote="Duane Oxley":2vfg5i3j][Huh...?

..

It's clear Duane is not familiar with a direct drive heat exchange system in a carpet cleaning van. He mentions "the higher maintenance requirements due to the higher complexity of most HX systems, AND the higher cost of "proprietary parts"". There is no complexity. Radiator fluid circulates through coils in one HX and hot air circulates through another HX if you have the additional blower HX like I do. There is no "sensors, relays, solenoids, multiple heat exchangers (each with their own sensor and control)", no "labor costs" for repairs, because there is no repairs. They just work and you don't even have to think about them. I'm at 8000 hours on my second WM machine with no repairs or even maintenance anticipated for the next ten years. My first WM (I still have) is at 20000 hours and the HX still works fine, no maintenence ever needed. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.[/quote:2vfg5i3j]


It's clear that Art didn't actually read what I wrote. "Most" is a qualifier, that means, "not all". "Most" HX systems aren't so- called, "direct drive" systems.

Direct drive systems have their own shortcomings, BTW... transmission failure and early replacement being one of the main ones...

Years ago, in 1982, the company I was with sold "Turbotech" truckmounts. Turbotech was a spin- off from HydraMaster. I asked Les (Smith, if memory serves) why they built PTO's and he laughed and replied, "Because now, when the system breaks down, they call Ford... not us.".

That load from running is simply transferred to the van engine... and the maintenance required as a result isn't seen as "system maintenance", for the most part, but, "something wrong with the van".

 

[bob vawter]

Duane...have you ever OWNED a Direct Drive.......?
if not....i wouldn't EXPECT you to "get it".

 

[Mike Draper]

I've owned one. Bob, how much is it to replace that van engine whe it goes out? How about that clutch?

 

[bob vawter]

I've owned one. Bob, how much is it to replace that van engine whe it goes out? How about that clutch?

i've NEVER had an issue with either one...
perhaps i keep my maintenance up better than you...?

which one did you own......?

 

[Art Kelley]

[Direct drive systems have their own shortcomings, BTW... transmission failure and early replacement being one of the main ones...

".

Yes I've seen you post that before, Duane, about early failure of the transmissions on direct drive CC vans. I did have to have the tranny rebuilt on my 1987 GMC van at 120000 miles, it hasn't been a problem since with over 200K miles. The Chevy van I use now has 80000 miles on it. The transmission is still excellent. Perhaps you can use this additional anecdotal evidence to frame your opinion about DD's.

 

[bob vawter]

Art...i was the SAME WAY....
before i got my first DD....EZACTLY!!!

OK..i'll say it again as it applies to everyone.....
people that are wrong
don't know that they are wrong...
cuz WTF would be wrong......
on purpose?

 

[Mike Draper]

some old farts run old fart equipment and they cant keep up with the pace of our more modern, more dependable, high flow, high CFM machines. If you want to clean slow and unproductive, just buy a portable and dump some hot water in it.

 

[bob vawter]

you never mentioned which Direct Drive got the best of you!

 

[Mike Draper]

Butler. Worthless customer service. Although, it is a dependable unit..........until your van motor needs to be replaced.

 

[bob vawter]

man...that van motor REALLY bothers you...don it?
if someone can't change a motor out in a weekend.....perhaps they SHOULD
stay on the porch.................!

 

[Mike Draper]

Bob, I can fix most anything mechanical. Look at the truck I built by myself. The cost associated with the engine is what bothers me. 5g's. I have looked for them. If you want one with less than 50 thousand miles you pay up the ass. Yes, a weekend fix, and a week to ship it here from half way across the country. Or, 2 hours to swap out my motor at 1/5th the price with only a wrench and a screwdriver. I dont have to replace expensive PTO clutches either. This is why my Judson C4 will shine for much longer.

 

[Mikey P]

T is tryin to brainwash all you freaks with his fuel savin POS no suck glorified porty. Put some fancy stickers on a Ninja and its the same crap T is producing. T's brilliant idea of puttin his porty in the little Frod vans is a great idea except you can not put a belley mount for propane. Also watch his price on WOC he does not include a heater with his machine. T has always bitched about Bait and Switchers then he pulls that crap. He has also sold three machines on this board plus a bunch of vac boosters and has yet to pay Mikey a dime for advertising. If I was a supplier I would be pissed. But T will play it off as no big deal and walk all over Mikey.


Golden Boy


.

:shock:



but he's right...

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

my Judson C4 will shine for much longer.

You guys did know the Nitro we had at the show was over 29 years old ?

 

[joeynbgky]

ok if you have an 11 gallon belly mount tank it actually holds 7 gallons.. heres one of my receipts $2.14 a gallon


hmm.. of course its alot more expensive at camping places and uhaul.. This is just a home delivery propane dealer, that i go to there shop to fill up.
How much is propane in your area?

 

[Art Kelley]

some old farts run old fart equipment and they cant keep up with the pace of our more modern, more dependable, high flow, high CFM machines. If you want to clean slow and unproductive, just buy a portable and dump some hot water in it.

The Judson you have is a beautiful beast that should last you decades. I would get one if a Pro1200 wasn't available. But I just love the simplicity of the DD and especially the HX systems.

"The unit will maintain 240 degrees on a Greenie High-Flow wand. It will have 500 cfm and operating pressure up to 1500 psi."
The specs on your C4 are similar to those of the Pro1200 now being built by Sapphire Scientific. Not much different at all. As always, the fuel fired heaters get a little hotter than a HX. But 240 at the machine works well for me with a high flow Ti wand.

 

[Duane Oxley]

...the fuel fired heaters get a little hotter than a HX....

A "little"...?

z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxAKhqu0Shsz]

 

[Mike Draper]

Propane goes way down in price in the summer. Right now its 1.94 gallon, within a month should be 1.50 gallon.

 

[GeneMiller]

different strokes for different folks. nobody on this board ever seems to change their song. Les just for the record I had a simple machine, propane fired and it didn't run any hotter then my thermalwave. It was simple to replace parts and boy did i have to. always problems with the burners .AIr cooled engines suck down here in the constant heat. This engine has already out lasted 3 air cooled and has no end in site. Fires right up and runs all day. cost wise i am way ahead already. instead of talking about how fast it is to replace an engine I'd rather buy an engine i don't half to replace.

gene

 

[Ron Werner]

well, I plan on keeping my CanAm for a long time. Very simple, propane is not even an issue. I can fill with diesel for the truck and propane for the CanAm at the same time. I can run 300ft and still have as good performance as some others do at 100ft, using 2.5in hose of course. LIghting it isn't even an issue. Coming up 3 yrs with it, changed some brass fittings. all the heat I need, don't need to burn my hands any more than I do on the hoses or fittings. Running 15 flow at 400psi keyed, great extraction.

Bob says its a bomb. Well, so's a gas tank. Both make a big fireball if misused.

 

[SMRBAP]

I'd really like to see how the 26k in savings was figured

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

I'd really like to see how the 26k in savings was figured

I will answer the $26,000 statement I made, but I need to ask you guys a few questions before I do.

Number 1….is it possible to have at least 4 jobs per day; residential, apartments, etc?

Number 2….is it possible that the scenario can occur where you get so busy that you might need to ad an extra truck? At this point, is there anything you can do to clean additional jobs without buying the second truck?

Number 3…..how much are you paying for gas these days?

Thanks

LES

 

[Ron Werner]

One thing I can do with my 4HT that I couldn't with a HX I had is vary the temp. If I want it cooler or hotter I just adjust the thermostat. I've seen other tm's with an adjustment knob, but do they work?

 

[bob vawter]

I'd really like to see how the 26k in savings was figured

I will answer the $26,000 statement I made, but I need to ask you guys a few questions before I do.

Number 1….is it possible to have at least 4 jobs per day; residential, apartments, etc?

Number 2….is it possible that the scenario can occur where you get so busy that you might need to ad an extra truck? At this point, is there anything you can do to clean additional jobs without buying the second truck?

Number 3…..how much are you paying for gas these days?

Thanks

LES

Les we did eight to eleven jobs a day...on a good day......it was nothing to get four houses in a row....the black clientele was really good at that.......
#2...ya GOTTA have a back up van......
sometimes the backup gets turned into a steady truck....when needed!
If someone CAN'T afford a backup....it's jus called thinnin' out the herd!
i paid $4.01 for premium yesterday!

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

[quote="Leslie Judson Jones":3idd9lv4]

I'd really like to see how the 26k in savings was figured

I will answer the $26,000 statement I made, but I need to ask you guys a few questions before I do.

Number 1….is it possible to have at least 4 jobs per day; residential, apartments, etc?

Number 2….is it possible that the scenario can occur where you get so busy that you might need to ad an extra truck? At this point, is there anything you can do to clean additional jobs without buying the second truck?

Number 3…..how much are you paying for gas these days?

Thanks

LES

Les we did eight to eleven jobs a day...on a good day......it was nothing to get four houses in a row....the black clientele was really good at that.......
#2...ya GOTTA have a back up van......
sometimes the backup gets turned into a steady truck....when needed!
If someone CAN'T afford a backup....it's jus called thinnin' out the herd!
i paid $4.01 for premium yesterday! [/quote:3idd9lv4]

Bob,

How many jobs a day could you clean without having to add a second truck or fire up your spare truck with you and a helper? Would you say that anything over 6 jobs a day you would have to start looking for a second unit? My point is, what can you do with your existing system to have the capability of cleaning more jobs per day without having to add a second truck. Remember, adding a second truck isn’t just adding a second truck. You have to hire people to run it.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Since I posted the picture of the Nitro that is over 29 years old, I’ve had some private messages saying that it wasn’t over 29 years old, because it had a new engine on it and had been refurbished.

I would like to ask a question. If had a 59 Cadillac and I put a new engine in it and repainted it, added new tires and brakes, is still a 59 Cadillac?

 

[bob vawter]

what can you do with your existing system to have the capability of cleaning more jobs per day without having to add a second truck

put a two man crew on the first truck....

 

[bob vawter]

Since I posted the picture of the Nitro that is over 29 years old, I’ve had some private messages saying that it wasn’t over 29 years old, because it had a new engine on it and had been refurbished.

I would like to ask a question. If had a 59 Cadillac and I put a new engine in it and repainted it, added new tires and brakes, is still a 59 Cadillac?

is still a 59 Cadillac?

it's still a 59 Cadillac...however it wouldn't be a brand NEW 59 Cadillac unless you replaced EVERY single part on it with a BRAND NEW part......

 

[SMRBAP]

I think their responses your getting about the 29 year old things is - it being called out as 29 years old comes off as saying the TM will run for 29 years - when in it didn't - it's still here, because it was refurb'd.

A 59 Caddy with 10,000 miles 100% original is going to be worth a ton more than a Caddy that isn't all original. And a 59 Caddy that was used 8-10 hrs a day 6 days a week, wouldn't be here unless it was rebuilt probably 10 times or more.

And it's in some ways the same with the $26k a year in savings comment - it comes off to a potential customer as this no HX TM is going to hand you back $26k, just in itself, not this TM plus another tech and potentially changing your business protocol could save you 26k a year. There is a difference in the eye of a buyer in that regard.

I'm working on doubling my gross revenues without adding a single piece of gear - by working towards an all commercial second shift. It has nothing to do with my TM's or their capabilities or cost of operation, and everything to do with the business around them.

Not firing off or being a schmuck - just letting you know what my perception of your comments were as someone that uses products in your market, and possibly some others here as well.

In fact I'm probably going to call on you for a unit to just suck floods as soon as I have need for a full time suck only unit - wait, that sounded bad.... not that your units suck, I just need a unit that just sucks - I give up !gotcha!