A few words about the upcoming systems I'll be building...
- Thread starter Duane Oxley
- Start date
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Brian:
It was under a constant 5". My opinion is that that's a good average figure. If you were to stand next to a system while it's cleaning, you'll rarely see it maintain above 10". It may peak at 14 or 15, but it will drop.
At 5", I know that a load factor has been figured in. How much is realistic, I'm not so sure. But I think 5" is a good place to start.
It was under a constant 5". My opinion is that that's a good average figure. If you were to stand next to a system while it's cleaning, you'll rarely see it maintain above 10". It may peak at 14 or 15, but it will drop.
At 5", I know that a load factor has been figured in. How much is realistic, I'm not so sure. But I think 5" is a good place to start.
Farenheit251
Member
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- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 732
I think 5 is way low. I think most guys rarely lift the wand off the carpet and even then there is water in the hose. My experience is with a glide so there is a little more resistance.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Well, cool, then.
So it should produce more heat in a "real- world" setting.
I have some more ideas to look into. One thing for sure... 185 ATW is a good starting point...
So it should produce more heat in a "real- world" setting.
I have some more ideas to look into. One thing for sure... 185 ATW is a good starting point...
Supersucker
Member
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- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 149
Thanks for the update.
I know that I gained heat going with the glide & higher flow, i allways have the wand on the fiber wet or dry stroking, unless i am moving furniture.
Why not just run it with 100' of hose, glided wand, in a real world test?
What is your planned HG setting, and what kind of relief?
I know that I gained heat going with the glide & higher flow, i allways have the wand on the fiber wet or dry stroking, unless i am moving furniture.
Why not just run it with 100' of hose, glided wand, in a real world test?
What is your planned HG setting, and what kind of relief?
TimP
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2007
- Messages
- 4,055
I'd say you should be looking at 10 HG for a load.....shoot mine with the wand on it with 100 ft of hose sits at 10 hg. Mine will stay at 13-14 hg while cleaning.....but also keep in mind that my system is designed to run under a load due to the plumbing. But seriously I think most cleaners will be at 14 hg with it on the carpet.
Also at .06 flow 185 atw with 25 ft isn't impresive, especially cycled on and off. 230 atm at 50 ft of hose should equal about 218 or so atw in my opinion. You should test both to see. Check it at your solution port and ATW, you aren't going to loose much at 25 ft of hose for sure.
Also at .06 flow 185 atw with 25 ft isn't impresive, especially cycled on and off. 230 atm at 50 ft of hose should equal about 218 or so atw in my opinion. You should test both to see. Check it at your solution port and ATW, you aren't going to loose much at 25 ft of hose for sure.
Duane, I know you cleaned carpets with high heat. If you were CCing now instead of building would you stay with 240 and 06 flow or would you be happier with 200 at 012/015/018 flow?
If you were post heating an HX machine with your propane boiler and could keep the temp. ATW at any setting with any flow, what would be your choice?
Could you please write a little about the pro and cons of propane vs. diesel. If you had your choice of each one built by you, what would you choose?
If you were post heating an HX machine with your propane boiler and could keep the temp. ATW at any setting with any flow, what would be your choice?
Could you please write a little about the pro and cons of propane vs. diesel. If you had your choice of each one built by you, what would you choose?
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Lance:
230 to 240 ATW is the sweet spot, assuming that you're flowing 1.5 GPM or more.(Heat without the "muscle" of flow is not that great, in my experience.) Past that, and the obvious increase in efficiency ceases to increase.
Using a "flow of "10" " is a misnomer. There is no, "flow of 6", "flow of 10", etc.
6 What? 10 What?
That number refers to jet size, which is based on 40 PSI (i.e., a #10 flows .1 GPM), or 4,000 PSI (i.e., a #10 flows 10 GPM), but doesn't tell you diddly about 500 PSI (3.54 GPM via a # 10, BTW).
And besides, the whole, "I flow a 10 (or 12, etc.)." thing is meaningless anyway, if you're truly wanting specifics. Because, if you're using 1/4" hose, the pressure at the wand is typically 200 PSI or possibly a bit closer to 250 less, than at the machine. So, the vast majority of people don't really know what their actual flow rate is and can't figure it out, without a stop watch and a bucket. "I flow a 10.", is not a unit of measure. At what pressure?
If your machine says you're delivering 500 PSI, then assume that the pressure at your jet(s) is 200 less, or 300 PSI. So, now, that "10 flow" has to be re-figured.
But back to the topic of flow in principle: In general, the more you flow, the better, as long as you can maintain heat at that level and recover the solution without over- wetting the carpet.
But... When you flow more, you recover more. So, you have to be ready to dump more. And if you have a relatively small recovery tank, you'd better have a good pump- out, or, be prepared to stop once or twice in a decent- sized job to go find a place to dump.
For example... If you're really flowing 3.25 GPM (about 300 PSI via a #10, as close as I can calculate at this time...), and recovering 85% of it, then you're recovering 2.76 GPM. So, you'll fill up an 80 gal. (actual capacity... what most manufacturers would list as "a 100 gal. tank") in 29 minutes.
Tim:
185 ATW really is about 20 degrees cooler than at the machine. Considering that it's being done with a relatively small, air- cooled motor, I see it as, like I said, a good starting point. (I'd hate to be starting at 120, for instance, to be building with.) Here's a comparison for you: A Little Giant #3 can't do that. It can do about 160 under those circumstances.
One thing I noticed was the heat loss of the hose that was used. It's a Blue Neptune clone. When pulling the trigger on the wand at the beginning of the "ON" cycle, the temperature would first drop about 15 degrees (from it's "standby" reading, which was lower than the previous "flowing" reading), then instantly come back up about 20 degrees.
This obviously reflects heat loss through the hose. (That would seem to indicate 200 ATM, but I'm not sure how much convection comes into play. In other words, since the water in the hose is "touching" the water in the exchanger, there is a "chain" formed, in which each molecule of water touches the one next to it, and the next does the same thing, etc., until the end of the hose is affected. And since the water in the exchanger is hot, there is a constant source of heat, transferring from the exchanger to the front of the system and beyond, even if no flow is occurring.) Heat is always moving from a place of higher concentration, to a place of lower concentration. It's just the way of things.
But keep in mind that I have something else to plug into the equation. It's a "gizmo", that I'm drawing up tonight, to install on the system Monday or thereabouts. And I know for a fact that it will make a difference. It's an idea that I came up with yesterday, to make the exhaust exchanger more efficient. That being the case, I'm pretty sure that it's patent- worthy. But unfortunately, I've already done the patent ap. So, it will have to be under a separate one, if at all. So, in the meantime, I won't be explaining it.
But by the first of the week, we should know how much real difference it makes. I can easily see another 20 degrees coming as a result.
Add to that the "real world" vacuum factor (Which is new to me. I'll have to play around with that...) and it's looking better and better.
230 to 240 ATW is the sweet spot, assuming that you're flowing 1.5 GPM or more.(Heat without the "muscle" of flow is not that great, in my experience.) Past that, and the obvious increase in efficiency ceases to increase.
Using a "flow of "10" " is a misnomer. There is no, "flow of 6", "flow of 10", etc.
6 What? 10 What?
That number refers to jet size, which is based on 40 PSI (i.e., a #10 flows .1 GPM), or 4,000 PSI (i.e., a #10 flows 10 GPM), but doesn't tell you diddly about 500 PSI (3.54 GPM via a # 10, BTW).
And besides, the whole, "I flow a 10 (or 12, etc.)." thing is meaningless anyway, if you're truly wanting specifics. Because, if you're using 1/4" hose, the pressure at the wand is typically 200 PSI or possibly a bit closer to 250 less, than at the machine. So, the vast majority of people don't really know what their actual flow rate is and can't figure it out, without a stop watch and a bucket. "I flow a 10.", is not a unit of measure. At what pressure?
If your machine says you're delivering 500 PSI, then assume that the pressure at your jet(s) is 200 less, or 300 PSI. So, now, that "10 flow" has to be re-figured.
But back to the topic of flow in principle: In general, the more you flow, the better, as long as you can maintain heat at that level and recover the solution without over- wetting the carpet.
But... When you flow more, you recover more. So, you have to be ready to dump more. And if you have a relatively small recovery tank, you'd better have a good pump- out, or, be prepared to stop once or twice in a decent- sized job to go find a place to dump.
For example... If you're really flowing 3.25 GPM (about 300 PSI via a #10, as close as I can calculate at this time...), and recovering 85% of it, then you're recovering 2.76 GPM. So, you'll fill up an 80 gal. (actual capacity... what most manufacturers would list as "a 100 gal. tank") in 29 minutes.
Tim:
185 ATW really is about 20 degrees cooler than at the machine. Considering that it's being done with a relatively small, air- cooled motor, I see it as, like I said, a good starting point. (I'd hate to be starting at 120, for instance, to be building with.) Here's a comparison for you: A Little Giant #3 can't do that. It can do about 160 under those circumstances.
One thing I noticed was the heat loss of the hose that was used. It's a Blue Neptune clone. When pulling the trigger on the wand at the beginning of the "ON" cycle, the temperature would first drop about 15 degrees (from it's "standby" reading, which was lower than the previous "flowing" reading), then instantly come back up about 20 degrees.
This obviously reflects heat loss through the hose. (That would seem to indicate 200 ATM, but I'm not sure how much convection comes into play. In other words, since the water in the hose is "touching" the water in the exchanger, there is a "chain" formed, in which each molecule of water touches the one next to it, and the next does the same thing, etc., until the end of the hose is affected. And since the water in the exchanger is hot, there is a constant source of heat, transferring from the exchanger to the front of the system and beyond, even if no flow is occurring.) Heat is always moving from a place of higher concentration, to a place of lower concentration. It's just the way of things.
But keep in mind that I have something else to plug into the equation. It's a "gizmo", that I'm drawing up tonight, to install on the system Monday or thereabouts. And I know for a fact that it will make a difference. It's an idea that I came up with yesterday, to make the exhaust exchanger more efficient. That being the case, I'm pretty sure that it's patent- worthy. But unfortunately, I've already done the patent ap. So, it will have to be under a separate one, if at all. So, in the meantime, I won't be explaining it.
But by the first of the week, we should know how much real difference it makes. I can easily see another 20 degrees coming as a result.
Add to that the "real world" vacuum factor (Which is new to me. I'll have to play around with that...) and it's looking better and better.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Ron Lippold said:
Ron:
A standard is no good if you don't stick to it. I've used a #6 jet at 600 PSI since 1996.
The only cleaners using larger than a #6 are, for the most part, on these boards. In fact, I see a surprising amount of wands still that have (2) #2 jets... effectively a #4. (I change them out more often than not, except on some heat exchanger systems that I know can't do more flow...)
What I may do is use 2 standards, just for reference. A #6 and a #10, etc. But going exclusively to a #10 or higher as standard is irrelevant to the vast majority of cleaners at work today.
Fon Johnson
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,066
I run "6 flow", and I'll put my results up with those of anyone else. Period. It may take a little bit longer to clean some jobs, but I have 2 hour (average) dry times with a 33 blower. Heck, most of the guys around here with much bigger blowers don't have dry times as good as I do.
I love high heat, but I think that 200 to 220 with more flow is better than 240 with less flow and more pressure. I love my old machine, and I am excited about replacing it with a new h/e unit! 8)
I love high heat, but I think that 200 to 220 with more flow is better than 240 with less flow and more pressure. I love my old machine, and I am excited about replacing it with a new h/e unit! 8)
A bigger blower only works better when you allow it to work better. What would be your dry times using a 59 blower with all the goodies but wanding as fast as possible? Speed demon cleaning doesn't really clean and it probably doesn't dry well either.
Fon, I bet you take your time because you want to do a good job. The equipment makes a difference but who is holding the wand and how well he/she wants the results to be far outweighs the power of the machine.
Just like in a car wreck....it's not the speed that kills you, it's the sudden stop that causes all the problems.
Fon, I bet you take your time because you want to do a good job. The equipment makes a difference but who is holding the wand and how well he/she wants the results to be far outweighs the power of the machine.
Just like in a car wreck....it's not the speed that kills you, it's the sudden stop that causes all the problems.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
A bigger blower only works better when you allow it to work better.
Yes. I'm very aware of what most manufacturers do to blower intake and / or exhaust plumbing. They choke it down, which keeps the blower under constant strain, so that it runs hotter and places more load on the motor, causing it to run hotter.
The interesting thing is, that I've not seen a vacuum gauge yet, connected between the blower and the reduced plumbing. It's always located between the reduced plumbing and the recovery tank... measuring resistance to airflow, after the reduction... not taking it into account.
Like I've said before, most HX systems are made this way. So most people don't know what a given size of blower can really do when it's not choked down. And that's become the norm in our industry.
I refuse to do that on a system I make. I won't compromise a blower's ability to breathe the way it's intended to do, in the "name of heat", so to speak. I see it as selling someone a given size blower, but giving them the next smaller size.
Yes. I'm very aware of what most manufacturers do to blower intake and / or exhaust plumbing. They choke it down, which keeps the blower under constant strain, so that it runs hotter and places more load on the motor, causing it to run hotter.
The interesting thing is, that I've not seen a vacuum gauge yet, connected between the blower and the reduced plumbing. It's always located between the reduced plumbing and the recovery tank... measuring resistance to airflow, after the reduction... not taking it into account.
Like I've said before, most HX systems are made this way. So most people don't know what a given size of blower can really do when it's not choked down. And that's become the norm in our industry.
I refuse to do that on a system I make. I won't compromise a blower's ability to breathe the way it's intended to do, in the "name of heat", so to speak. I see it as selling someone a given size blower, but giving them the next smaller size.
T
The Magician
Guest
Now Duane are we going to se any of these machine in Vegas??
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Not this time. I sent an info request to them, just in case, right after Connections Orlando and didn't hear back. It wouldn't have mattered though, because I could tell shortly thereafter that this was going to take longer than expected to get it running the way I want.
Before this system goes to a trade show, it will be tweaked a bit more for output and shielded a bit, in terms of moving parts, etc.
One thing that we'll be doing, BTW, is supplying a different type of "standard" temperature gauge than other suppliers do, reflecting my commitment to "ATW" temperature:
Before this system goes to a trade show, it will be tweaked a bit more for output and shielded a bit, in terms of moving parts, etc.
One thing that we'll be doing, BTW, is supplying a different type of "standard" temperature gauge than other suppliers do, reflecting my commitment to "ATW" temperature:
G
Guest
Guest
Duane,your knowledge and professionalism are both absorbed and appreciated,thanks for keeping it simple(the machine too) 
Kevin
Kevin
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Thanks, Kevin... 8)
Fon Johnson
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,066
That post above was supposed to read I have hour dry times, not 12.. That would not be impressive.. LOL
Brian R
Member
Fon Johnson said:
that's what I was thinking but I figured it was a type-o.
This has been a favorite thread for me.
Sometimes I DO shut my mouth and listen.
I'm just talking about me guys, don't get your panties in a bunch. :mrgreen:
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Supersucker said:
I don't think I answered this one last night.
All of these different considerations to "load" a HX system have been unnecessary with the LP systems I've been building for so long. So I'm having to look at some kind of standard here.
Hose length affects PSI as I cited above. And PSI relates directly to flow rate. So, length relates to flow rate as well.
Hose type relates to heat loss. It's been said that a "synflex type" of hose loses less heat than a wire braid. So that has to be taken into account.
And we have ambient temperature to consider. On cold days (winter time, etc.) heat loss is more than in the summer time.
With all of the above variables to consider, how is a standard to be determined?
I think that the best place to start for now is to have a predictable flow rate. And the only way to truly do that is to have a pressure gauge at the wand jet for testing purposes. That way, I really do know the flow rate.
Now, this "planned Hg." idea...
I'm still looking at that. But for now, I'll set it at 10" of lift, just to accommodate some of the comments that were brought up here last night. (And besides, I don't want to under- report what the systems can do, any more than I want to claim something that can't be done.)
The vac relief is one I make: a stainless steel disk with a synthetic rubber layer between it and the system lid it's mounted through. The bolt is a 5/16" and the hole that it moves through is sized at 3/8" to prevent binding. A Kunkle, etc, can also be spec'd in, if desired, but, especially on the continuous pump out systems, such a "bump" isn't necessary. Those systems have more vacuum for a given blower size than others do, assuming that the ones being compared to aren't over- driven, which is extremely rare.
In considering the above, What I'm leaning toward, just for evaluation purposes, is installing 2 temperature gauges during the evaluation... One on the system and one at the wand... That will show the difference between the two very easily.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Here's a close- up of something that you'll find interesting, I think. It's a picture illustrating how easy it is to access and maintain this system's drive and heating sub-systems.
(This is the kind of thing that takes so much time to come up with and design, but pays off in a large way after the systems are out in the real world.)
What you'll see below is 3 things:
1.) The design I settled on that allows the exchangers to be opened up for cleaning when necessary. (8- bolt flanges on each end)
2.) The "saddles" that support the exchanger (and the bypass that's in- line over it.) They will be coated with Teflon next week. And the exchanger will have a wrap of stainless around the insulation that you now see. This will allow the exchanger to slide back and forth with the motor, should belt or coupler changes be warranted. (The bypass and other plumbing will be wrapped with silicone- reinforced insulation next week as well.)
3.) The "plumber's union" at the back, below the exhaust collector for the exchanger & bypass. (In essence, you open the union and that allows the plumbing to de- couple, which allows it- exchanger and bypass- to slide with the motor during belt- changes, etc.)
And below shows how the motor is able to slide forward and backward, without losing alignment, and remain locked into position while in operation. So, the exchanger slides with it, by simply releasing the plumber's union.
(This is the kind of thing that takes so much time to come up with and design, but pays off in a large way after the systems are out in the real world.)
What you'll see below is 3 things:
1.) The design I settled on that allows the exchangers to be opened up for cleaning when necessary. (8- bolt flanges on each end)
2.) The "saddles" that support the exchanger (and the bypass that's in- line over it.) They will be coated with Teflon next week. And the exchanger will have a wrap of stainless around the insulation that you now see. This will allow the exchanger to slide back and forth with the motor, should belt or coupler changes be warranted. (The bypass and other plumbing will be wrapped with silicone- reinforced insulation next week as well.)
3.) The "plumber's union" at the back, below the exhaust collector for the exchanger & bypass. (In essence, you open the union and that allows the plumbing to de- couple, which allows it- exchanger and bypass- to slide with the motor during belt- changes, etc.)
And below shows how the motor is able to slide forward and backward, without losing alignment, and remain locked into position while in operation. So, the exchanger slides with it, by simply releasing the plumber's union.
Mikey P
Administrator
Ba da bump.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Hey, Mikey.
Glad to see you're watching.
I know, I know... It's not a MA (Mikey- Approved) system like a Vortex. But it isn't supposed to be.
The Elite, however, will be more along those lines...
Back at 'cha.
Glad to see you're watching.
I know, I know... It's not a MA (Mikey- Approved) system like a Vortex. But it isn't supposed to be.
The Elite, however, will be more along those lines...
Back at 'cha.
you might consider using this style of connection
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... lamp%20Kit
instead of the galvanized union at the back of the heat exchanger. these are much easier to break apart and reconect than those unions are. My experience with those unions after a period of time from condensation and heat cooling cycle of the exhaust they are a pain in the rear to break loose.
One of these would be nice above the connection also..
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... 20Couplers
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... lamp%20Kit
instead of the galvanized union at the back of the heat exchanger. these are much easier to break apart and reconect than those unions are. My experience with those unions after a period of time from condensation and heat cooling cycle of the exhaust they are a pain in the rear to break loose.
One of these would be nice above the connection also..
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... 20Couplers
Greenie said:
http://www.clampco.com/products/flanges-no-gasket.asp
im sure there are others that make them too. This was just one i had marked.
not sure about 1" but you could use this..
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... 20Expander
or swell the 1" out to 1.5"
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... 20Expander
or swell the 1" out to 1.5"
Loren Egland
Member
"if you're using 1/4" hose, the pressure at the wand is typically 200 PSI or possibly a bit closer to 250 less, than at the machine"
Dwayne
How much difference does 3/8' hose make in PSI? Some have said that due to the jet size or wand solution hose size that 3/8 inch hose is not needed. I assume the pressure must be set higher to compensate for the 1/4" hose to make it equal the 3/8" PSI at the wand?
So will your systems be plumbed for 1/4' or 3/8" hose couplers?
I also found interesting your point about blower restrictions that inhibit vacuum for the sake of higher heat in the heat exchangers, making engine/blower work harder and hotter. That might explain why Mikey mentioned that his Powermatic seemed like it had more suck than other machines with the same size blower. Perhaps these other machines were using heat exchangers to heat the water and were thus restricting the airflow to capture more heat.
It sounds like you are doing some nice things with equipment. Perhaps your kero unit will give the El Diablo some competition.
Now just make them pretty and not to rust anywhere.
Loren
Dwayne
How much difference does 3/8' hose make in PSI? Some have said that due to the jet size or wand solution hose size that 3/8 inch hose is not needed. I assume the pressure must be set higher to compensate for the 1/4" hose to make it equal the 3/8" PSI at the wand?
So will your systems be plumbed for 1/4' or 3/8" hose couplers?
I also found interesting your point about blower restrictions that inhibit vacuum for the sake of higher heat in the heat exchangers, making engine/blower work harder and hotter. That might explain why Mikey mentioned that his Powermatic seemed like it had more suck than other machines with the same size blower. Perhaps these other machines were using heat exchangers to heat the water and were thus restricting the airflow to capture more heat.
It sounds like you are doing some nice things with equipment. Perhaps your kero unit will give the El Diablo some competition.
Now just make them pretty and not to rust anywhere.
Loren
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
"How much difference does 3/8' hose make in PSI? Some have said that due to the jet size or wand solution hose size that 3/8 inch hose is not needed. I assume the pressure must be set higher to compensate for the 1/4" hose to make it equal the 3/8" PSI at the wand?"
Yes. A 3/8" hose "robs you" of 50 PSI, vs. the 200 or so of 1/4"
"So will your systems be plumbed for 1/4' or 3/8" hose couplers?"
1/4, since that's the industry standard. Going to 3/8" would bake better than 9 out of 10 hoses incompatible, without some kind of adapter. And running 3/8" hose from one would not matter as much as going to all 3/8" plumbing, fittings and hose to the wand. 3/8" hose is pretty cumbersome as well.
I also found interesting your point about blower restrictions that inhibit vacuum for the sake of higher heat in the heat exchangers, making engine/blower work harder and hotter. That might explain why Mikey mentioned that his Powermatic seemed like it had more suck than other machines with the same size blower.
Yes. That also explains why I've heard the same thing about systems I make... and the continuous pump out systems, which have the smaller tank (12 gal.) have noticeably more than the rest of mine. So, when I hear that a certain sales guy selling oil- fired systems that use a a #45 blower, claims that it "acts like" a #47, I understand why... Because people are used to choked- down blowers as the standard of the industry now.
It sounds like you are doing some nice things with equipment. Perhaps your kero unit will give the El Diablo some competition.
Stand by... 8)
Now just make them pretty and not to rust anywhere.
I'm working on that...
Yes. A 3/8" hose "robs you" of 50 PSI, vs. the 200 or so of 1/4"
"So will your systems be plumbed for 1/4' or 3/8" hose couplers?"
1/4, since that's the industry standard. Going to 3/8" would bake better than 9 out of 10 hoses incompatible, without some kind of adapter. And running 3/8" hose from one would not matter as much as going to all 3/8" plumbing, fittings and hose to the wand. 3/8" hose is pretty cumbersome as well.
I also found interesting your point about blower restrictions that inhibit vacuum for the sake of higher heat in the heat exchangers, making engine/blower work harder and hotter. That might explain why Mikey mentioned that his Powermatic seemed like it had more suck than other machines with the same size blower.
Yes. That also explains why I've heard the same thing about systems I make... and the continuous pump out systems, which have the smaller tank (12 gal.) have noticeably more than the rest of mine. So, when I hear that a certain sales guy selling oil- fired systems that use a a #45 blower, claims that it "acts like" a #47, I understand why... Because people are used to choked- down blowers as the standard of the industry now.
It sounds like you are doing some nice things with equipment. Perhaps your kero unit will give the El Diablo some competition.
Stand by... 8)
Now just make them pretty and not to rust anywhere.
I'm working on that...
