A few words about the upcoming systems I'll be building...

[Duane Oxley]

you might consider using this style of connection
instead of the galvanized union at the back of the heat exchanger. these are much easier to break apart and reconect than those unions are.
One of these would be nice above the connection also..
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... 20Couplers

Very cool. Thanks. I definitely like the way these work better. I'll check them out.

It's an interesting synchronicity that you list Verocious, of all sources. I have an account with them and placed an order with them only day before yesterday. They have very good prices on stainless tubing, among other things.

 

[gasaxe]

you might consider using this style of connection
instead of the galvanized union at the back of the heat exchanger. these are much easier to break apart and reconect than those unions are.
One of these would be nice above the connection also..
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/veroci ... 20Couplers

Very cool. Thanks. I definitely like the way these work better. I'll check them out.

It's an interesting synchronicity that you list Verocious, of all sources. I have an account with them and placed an order with them only day before yesterday. They have very good prices on stainless tubing, among other things.

those type of couplings are used on high performance turbocharged applications both gas and diesel, exhaust and intercooler pipeing. Im starting to see more and more middle of the road and up performance exhaust system being made with that style of joint. They are much easier to separate and reconnect.
I have a turbo diesel truck and the downpipe and back uppipe have that style of flange.. High heat upwards of 1400 deg egts at times (its hopped up a bit..lol) and it comes apart easily any time the turbo needs worked on. Sometimes you have to give it a little shot of pb blaster and a lite tap and it comes right apart.

 

[Duane Oxley]

So, one more thing about this system, for now...

I've found a low- pressure 5 PSI gauge to install on it. And the reason why is simple:

Back pressure on an exchanger system is critical. In the last few years, the amount of back pressure allowed on a motor by the manufacturer has decreased, from about 3 PSI to half of that. I know that the main concern with back pressure is damage to the motor. But I suspect that the more stringent reason is that it relates directly to emissions, which are becoming more and more under scrutiny now, as we all know.

But the thing is this: Since I've put so much into ensuring that you can actually remove and clean these exchangers to remove soot, etc., I think that a way should be provided to let you know when that is becoming necessary, or is presently necessary, etc. (No other manufacturer does such a thing that I found in the patent searches I did, so I included that in the patent application.)

Why is this really necessary? Well, for instance, if your motor burns rich for any reason, it's producing soot. And this could be due to a dirty air filter, not changing or maintaining the plugs, the choke being not all the way "OFF" when running and other reasons.

It's similar to the way that LP heaters need to have their jets cleaned to keep in best efficiency, or, in worst case scenario, have their coils cleaned. And, if you have an exhaust heat exchanger, it's a definite consideration.

 

[ruff]

Duane,
Here is what's important to the "Non Posting" poster.
I could not care less if the machine does not reach the super duper highest temp. Who cares!
I do not care if it has the world's best flow. Who cares! Unless they are a "poster poster" on this board.

This is what people like me care about:

#1: DEPENDABILITY.
As Clinton said: "It's the dependability....."
If the machine is more dependable then others I will gladly pay more. If my money goes to an individual like you and not to a big company- all the better. As long as you take good care of your clients.

#2: Cost of operating. Gas is going to become more and more expensive. Both traveling to the client and operating the machine. Anything to save in that regard will pay dividends in the long run. Actually if you could come up with an electric machine that can be hooked up to the client's home and provide all of your other machines performance (well, at least in the neighborhood) you'll be raking a lot of money in.

#3: Servicability. Both have someone local to take care of it and or be able to service it without being very mechanically inclined.

#4: Durability: Need I explain?

#5: Quiet. The less noise it makes the better.

If you tackle these issues, this "Non Poster" poster will gladly buy from you. That is when his dang Hydramaster dies.

Did I mention that I could not care less about getting the most "macho": Heat, Airflow, Size of blower and or any other body parts!
They never had anything to do with quality of cleaning and never will.- Just for balance.

Keep the good work. Make our day and make us buy that machine!

If it will be that good, we'll gladly pay a fair price for it.

Look how much all the Vortex groupies are paying and all they are getting is the bragging rights.
Well, I forgot the ego boost.
But that can be tackled in any 12 step program.
Cheers.

 

[TimP]

Duane,
Here is what's important to the "Non Posting" poster.
I could not care less if the machine does not reach the super duper highest temp. Who cares!
I do not care if it has the world's best flow. Who cares! Unless they are a "poster poster" on this board.

This is what people like me care about:

#1: DEPENDABILITY.
As Clinton said: "It's the dependability....."
If the machine is more dependable then others I will gladly pay more. If my money goes to an individual like you and not to a big company- all the better. As long as you take good care of your clients.

#2: Cost of operating. Gas is going to become more and more expensive. Both traveling to the client and operating the machine. Anything to save in that regard will pay dividends in the long run. Actually if you could come up with an electric machine that can be hooked up to the client's home and provide all of your other machines performance (well, at least in the neighborhood) you'll be raking a lot of money in.

#3: Servicability. Both have someone local to take care of it and or be able to service it without being very mechanically inclined.

#4: Durability: Need I explain?

#5: Quiet. The less noise it makes the better.

If you tackle these issues, this "Non Poster" poster will gladly buy from you. That is when his dang Hydramaster dies.

Did I mention that I could not care less about getting the most "macho": Heat, Airflow, Size of blower and or any other body parts!
They never had anything to do with quality of cleaning and never will.- Just for balance.

Keep the good work. Make our day and make us buy that machine!

If it will be that good, we'll gladly pay a fair price for it.

Look how much all the Vortex groupies are paying and all they are getting is the bragging rights.
Well, I forgot the ego boost.
But that can be tackled in any 12 step program.
Cheers.

Sounds like you need to get you a Bane...



However I do agree that dependability is key. And second most importance is that it delivers king performance (unlike above) high flow of heat and lots of vac....at least adequate. I say 230+ ATM at .06 flow continuous (will probably have to be a hybrid system of some sort for heat though) at 500-600 psi (enough for .10+ flow real world) is adequate for heat and a 45-47 blower unrestricted is also key in addition to low fuel consumption. All those together make a good single wand machine as far as specs. Then you have serviceablity. Butler has done well because their machine is easy to work on for a BDCC. Everything has QC's and is laid out well with a great diagram. And for engine problems most can take care of it at any small engine dealer. As long as you can follow the rule of KISS (keep it simple stupid) you can have a great machine.

 

[ruff]

Tim,
Bane at best produces warm water at the wand. Big difference between that and the average truck mount which all produce fairly hot water. Clearly an inferior machine. Besides I hate bane's marketing that is done mostly through ignorance and fear.

Personally, I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference in cleaning between a machine that produces 195 or 200 at the wand. Yet it requires to jump through so many hoops and design complications to achieve that difference.
Not worth it.
Defeats the dependability etc goals.

It sounds like you need a VOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRTEX

Say it ain't the bragging rights!

 

[TimP]

You can get heat with a bane you just need LP to heat the water.

Just ask Odin about it....he's got it all worked out

 

[Duane Oxley]

Thank you for your comments. I'm addressing each one below.

This is what people like me care about:

#1: DEPENDABILITY.

I've looked at this from the standpoint of what I've seen in other HX systems that have gone bad or been problematic, etc. Things like Dema valves and solution control solenoids that scale up, get clogged, etc. , and the jets / orifices that they spray through becoming obstructed seem to be pretty common. And of course, there are the relays that control them, and the switches that control the relays, etc.

The system I've designed (there are 2 versions of it, actually) has none of the above. It controls temperature by airflow alone. This is a big step forward into the area of simplicity, from what I've seen, and I've seen most systems available today.

But there's more than that. Some systems I've seen have belts that are too close to exhaust, or run on pulleys that are so small, the tension between them has to be excessively- tight, in order to not slip. In the first case, the belts are "cooked" and have a short life as a result. In the other, the tension adds so much "side load" to the bearings and seals of the motor and or blower, that both fail prematurely as a result.

My systems have none of these problems, because I intentionally design "around them", so to speak.


#2: Cost of operating. Gas is going to become more and more expensive.

Yes, and I think that one way to address that is to use smaller engines, since engines are what actually burn the fuel. Looking at HX technology with regard to how they can be as efficient as possible is another. And the reason is that, if a smaller system can get substantial heat, larger systems are less necessary, unless you're running more than one wand. (And I have some ideas about that as well.)

#3: Serviceability. Both have someone local to take care of it and or be able to service it without being very mechanically inclined.

You don't need a plumbing schematic to trace it down and understand it. (But I do provide one, just to keep things simple for you.)

"Ease of maintenance" is one of the main areas of focus in the HX designs I've come up with. (It's also true in the others, but this is related to HX for now.) Simple things, like changing a belt, changing a drive coupler and changing oil, etc., have been kept simple, thanks to the motor slide plate. I suspect that they are more simple and direct on this system than the vast majority of others available at this time. Certainly, this is true of all of the HX systems I've seen.

In addition, I know of no HX system anywhere that has maintenance of the exchangers as an integral concept, much less one that's been painstakingly designed to allow for removal and access of the exchangers. (The removable ends on both exchangers is part of the patent, by the way.)

And I know of no other HX system that indicates if and when back pressure becomes critical, so that you can:

1.) Preserve the life of the motor
2.) Maintain the efficiency (heat output) of the exchangers.

Even the pump out pump for recovered solution is directly- accessible and easily opened via removing the 4 housing bolts that sandwich it together.



#4: Durability: Need I explain?

I designed in only components that I personally have a long and reliable history with. For that reason, I use only Kohler motors, Cat pumps and Tuthill or Roots blowers. But more than simply choosing certain components, the fabricated parts that I design are extra rugged. (For instance, the pump mount is 3/8" thick steel plate... Not stamped parts. And the frame is not made from stamped- out sheet metal. Also, both exchangers (of the Nemesis) are 304 stainless steel, as is the exhaust diverter.) And even the pump out pump is super- durable. You can pump water with sand through it without damage It can run dry indefinitely without damage.

#5: Quiet. The less noise it makes the better.
Agreed. That's why you see a silencer in the pictures. I could have used a car muffler, or another kind of silencer, but I've found this one to be quieter than other silencers and certainly quieter than a muffler.

 

[Duane Oxley]

I do agree that dependability is key. And second most importance is that it delivers king performance (unlike above) high flow of heat and lots of vac....at least adequate. I say 230+ ATM at .06 flow continuous (will probably have to be a hybrid system of some sort for heat though) at 500-600 psi (enough for .10+ flow real world) is adequate for heat and a 45-47 blower unrestricted is also key in addition to low fuel consumption. All those together make a good single wand machine as far as specs. Then you have serviceablity.

Tim:

I'm not quite through with this heat thing. Hold on and let's see what the upcoming "tweak" will do. Keep in mind that my background is "high heat / high flow" LP systems. With that in mind, I think it gives me a pretty good basis to design simplicity in (as I've delineated above...) and to expect a high heat output, know what that really means, and push to get it.

I'm not walking away from the high heat standard I've always held, just because I'm building HX systems now.

As for blower restriction, there is none. I refuse to tweak a blower like that. A #45 really is a #45, etc., if it's on a system I design and build. But what's even more, I don't design in 90 degree turns ion blower plumbing, just to take it one step further.

 

[ruff]

Duane,
Slightly off the subject.
Here in the city while the machine is working the van is locked- theft is a problem.
Will that be posiible to design a slide in unit that allows for that?
That will be an important selling point for me.
Thanks
Ofer

 

[Duane Oxley]

Ofer:

That's one thing with a slide- in that's not very feasible. The motor has to be able to breathe cooler air from the outside.

I have designed another approach to theft of items from the van, however, by isolating the front from the back of the van and locking down items in the back while the van is open.

Don't know if that helps you, though.

Thanks.

 

[ruff]

Duane,
Sorry if this is a little on the ignorant side:

1) From the simplicity side: I assume that the Kohler is a regular gas engine, the heater is propane and the van or truck may be diesel- in other words three different fuel sources. Will one of your systems use the same source for all?
Personally I am leaning towards a diesel truck. Is it possible to have all systems tie into the trucks diesel tank?

2) I was told that the water cooled engines like the Honda or Onnan, are much more dependable. Any truth to that?

3) Regarding locked slide ins. Wouldn't a kind of air inlet (metal pipe) be designed to let cold air be sucked in?

Thanks
Ofer

 

[Duane Oxley]

Duane,

1) From the simplicity side: I assume that the Kohler is a regular gas engine

Yes.

...the heater is propane

Not necessarily. I make all 3 types of heating systems currently in use today.

1.) Propane (It's what I started out with and built exclusively until a few months ago)
2.) Oil- fired (a.k.a., "kerosene", which I was contracted to do for a customer and now offer as well)
3.) Heat Exchanger (This thread is basically about the HX systems I designed recently.)

and the van or truck may be diesel- in other words three different fuel sources.

Diesel vans are not the norm. But, yes, you could conceivably have 3 fuels, if you had an LP system. I can build an all- LP system, which, if the truck ran on LP, would be one fuel.

Will one of your systems use the same source for all?

I am building gasoline HX systems, which use only use fuel from the (gasoline) van.

Personally I am leaning towards a diesel truck. Is it possible to have all systems tie into the trucks diesel tank?

Yes. However diesel systems are not common. If it runs on gasoline then you'd need to add a gasoline tank to the van. Larry Cobb says that he's looking into building a diesel powered system, from what I hear.

2) I was told that the water cooled engines like the Honda or Onnan, are much more dependable. Any truth to that?

Kohler and Briggs make them as well. And they're no less reliable than the two you cited, to my knowledge.

Personally, I don't like Honda. I've been very up front as to why- their stringent warranty policy. Basically, they assume it's your fault and leave the burden of proof otherwise on your shoulders. That proof includes maintenance records and often periodic maintenance at their authorized service centers. . I don't know about their water- cooled motors, but their air- cooled ones have mechanical lifters- not hydraulic- for the valves. As a result, they're not self- adjusting. And as a result of that, they have to be adjusted manually every 300 hours by a factory- trained technician. So, you have to be prepared to have some in- shop repair time about every 3 months, if you work full- time cleaning. And if you don't have the valves adjusted, that's a warranty violation.

Are water- cooled more reliable than air- cooled? No. Not necessarily. Given the same quality of maintenance (same oil change intervals, same kind of oil, etc.), they'll last about the same. But as engines are larger (i.e. a 18 HP vs. a 70 HP), they're more ruggedly- built as a rule. And the larger motors tend to be water cooled.

3) Regarding locked slide ins. Wouldn't a kind of air inlet (metal pipe) be designed to let cold air be sucked in?

It's possible, I guess, but you'd have to position it through the wall or door of the van, etc., which would be a pain to do and undesirable by most people.

Thanks
Ofer

You're welcome,

Duane

 

[The Preacher]

what was the reason behind the exahust being at a weird angle in that one pic??? was that the silencer you spoke of???

 

[Duane Oxley]

Which exhaust...?

The exhaust exchanger and it's bypass both feed into a common pipe, via what I call, a "collector". It's designed with 45- degree angles that prevent back- feeding into the unused airway. (That's just over the union discussed above. It's wrapped in insulation to prevent heat loss in the picture (as will the rest of that passageway be soon).

The system exhaust from the silencer comes out fairly sharp (less than 45 degrees), because it has to, in order to not come out in the middle of the face plate and prevent a symmetry of instrumentation as a result. Also, I don't like for an exhaust to be pointing "straight", if it's coming out an anywhere near face level.

So, for those reasons, it's turned down.

 

[Duane Oxley]

So, last week, Jeff Ellis is at my place to check out the Nemesis. And I hook it up for him and we plug in the temperature gauge at the end of the hose as before. And it's hovering around 185 at the end of the hose.

"Duane, I think something's wrong.", he says.

"Yeah, I know, but I also know what it is and how to fix it.", I reply.

"No.", he says, "I don't think you get it. I think the gauge is reading too low. Something's wrong with it. It feels a lot hotter than 185."

So, I wanted a second gauge anyway, just to check ATM vs. ATW temperatures. And I got another and checked it in a pan of boiling water. It read 210 degrees.

And when I put the second (older) one in, it registered 192, for a total of 18 degrees cooler than the new one. (I've had the "older" one for a few years now, and it's been bumped around some. It can be calibrated, and the calibration adjustment is behind the gauge, so it could have become "uncalibrated" in all of the movement, storage, bumping, etc.)

[center:2r4xlzya]Keeping the above in mind, the 185 ATW reading I posted the other day, should have 18 degrees added to it, resulting in
203 ATW.[/center:2r4xlzya]

All of this is before the upcoming test tomorrow with the new gizmo I designed, BTW. I expect to get another 20 or so degrees, ATW when the test is run, resulting in 220 or perhaps a bit more, at the wand...

And I do know how to take it beyond that as well.

So, I'm feeling more and more confident that the Nemesis systems will deliver 230 or more ATW, reliably, with "just" a 25 Kohler and a #45 blower or equivalent.

Stay tuned...

 

[Nate The Great]

that's good news Duane..

keep up the good work..

looking forward to seeing the final product..

 

[Duane Oxley]

Yes, it's very good news. I'm tickled, to say the least.

For one thing, this one will generate as much heat as systems using larger components, taking up more floor space, consuming more fuel, bringing more complication and costing significantly more money.

For another, it means that the Xcel "entry level" system I have planned will do very well, too.

And for another, it means that the Elite will be something that will seriously make an impact...

But first things first. I have a few things yet to do for this system, mainly of a cosmetic nature at this point.

 

[TimP]

That's more like it.


You should do some more tests. You should also see what it will keep running .06 flow constant. That will give us an idea of what it will do at .12 flow. Also do tests atm and atw. A lot of us use better hose that keeps heat better and we base our heat ATM and not ATW.

 

[Jeremy]

Sounds pretty sweet. I'd be most likely be very interested in pricing on an all LP (van and all) system once you're "sure it's ready". Seems to me that LP would be cheaper than gasoline and burn cleaner as well & a spare 20lb cylinder could finish a job &/or get you home if need be.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Sounds pretty sweet. I'd be most likely be very interested in pricing on an all LP (van and all)

how much is LP?

and i thought I've read that LP vehicles don't get near the fuel mileage as reg gas vehicles.


..L.T.A.

 

[TimP]

LP costs about 25% less in the US but you only loose about 10% on your fuel economy. I read it takes 3 years to break even or probably 45,000 miles.

I'd be interested in an LP powered engine for the TM as it's cheap to convert compared to a Truck. I'd still prefer a heat exchange system and maybe boosted with little giant depending on the heat output.

 

[Duane Oxley]

That's more like it.

You should do some more tests. You should also see what it will keep running .06 flow constant. That will give us an idea of what it will do at .12 flow. Also do tests atm and atw. A lot of us use better hose that keeps heat better and we base our heat ATM and not ATW.

Hey, Tim.

Thanks.

I will be doing more tests. One will be tomorrow.

My standard has always been with an 06 or equivalent, with constant flow. For the sake of real- world figures, I'll also be doing an intermittent flow, more like carpet cleaning. It will be 8 seconds on and 8 off, cycled.

I got two gauges so that I can do ATM and ATW evaluations as well.

I've always used ATW figures when doing evaluations and making heat claims. So, I'll continue. But I'll also do and report ATM figures.

Really, when you giove it some thought, to be consistent, you need to know the input temperature (from fresh water source) as well. It's the only real way to know system output. That way, a test in Winter can be compared to one in Summer.

Here's how it would go:

A temperature gauge on the fresh water input. And one on the output. Subtract the intput temperature from the output, to get the "degrees rise". For instance:

Output Temp: 210 degrees
Input Temp: 75 degrees
Result: 135 degrees rise over input temperature

If you change the input temperature, you'd still logically expect to see the same amount of rise, so it becomes predictable what performance will occur, regardless of time of the year.

For instance:

Input of 60 degrees, would result in 185 degrees output, assuming that the flow rate is the same.

Input of 80 degrees, would result in 215 degrees...

With a standardized flow rate (or two), then you could evaluate any two systems for true comparison, even if on different days, different seasons, etc.

Anyway, you get the idea.

So, yes, I will do practical heat tests.

 

[Numero Uno]

Duane,1st of all best wishes in your new project.2nd give me a call at 413 433 5938,I found a product to eliminate a old problem we discuseed on blue board a few yrs back...

If you think it will work ,I will reveal it to the bbs?

 

[Duane Oxley]

By the way. I forgot to mention this:

I've decided to change the heat exchanger material to a heavier wall thickness. There are a few reasons for this, but the two most crucial are:

The new wall thickness will handle 4,000 PSI working pressure. (It's not the idea to run at that pressure. But it does make the exchangers much more durable from a pressure spike and metal fatigue standpoint over the long haul.)

Now, I'll feel better about using a 2,000 PSI pump when people request it.

I'm taking pains to ensure that these systems are not only easy to work on, but to ensure that you won't have to work on them as well.

I'm also in the process of designing an "Afterburner Kit", to supplement the heat of non- exchange systems. The first one will be for systems that I've made in the past. Others will follow.

 

[hogjowl]

Sheese ... if you'd stop wasting time making sure this DAT stays active and work on these "systems", there might be a few actually on the road, working, and available for demo's. :roll:

Are you on welfare?

 

[Duane Oxley]

Hey, Mardy.

It's Saturday. And I promised myself I'd take time away from work. But it's a difficult thing for me to do.

Boosting the durability of the exchangers is something I decided to do after some consideration. It's a "biggie", to me, because it's the one area that I'd taken for granted before, which can be a problem. I don't want to take any part of this design for granted.

I've taken pains, like I said, to ensure that these systems are as simple as possible (without having to have a bypass on the wand to regulate temperature, etc.). The final part of the equation is this: Making the exchangers as bullet- proof as possible.

 

[TimP]

One thing that I'd keep in mind is that you can make running changes to your design if you find you're having problems in certain areas. There is something to say about over doing everything in design. What I'm trying to say is that it's good that you're trying to make a rock solid machine but there has to be a point where you're over thinking the whole design and loosing money in market share by taking too long to build. So you have to balance market share, profit, and design time. I'm not here to tell you how to run your biz though.

 

[Duane Oxley]

One thing that I'd keep in mind is that you can make running changes to your design if you find you're having problems in certain areas. There is something to say about over doing everything in design. What I'm trying to say is that it's good that you're trying to make a rock solid machine but there has to be a point where you're over thinking the whole design and loosing money in market share by taking too long to build. So you have to balance market share, profit, and design time. I'm not here to tell you how to run your biz though.

Point taken, Tim.

This design has definitely been a long time coming. And at times, I've felt as if it needed to move forward more quickly. But being an entirely new design, I just didn't feel that I should / could rush it. It's complete, though, finally. This last point of reinforcing the exchanger durability is actually the last, other than some cosmetic stuff.

I'm finally to the point that I feel secure in selling one of these to even the most clutzy end- user. (It has built- in safeguards that prevent it from being damaged if it runs out of water, yet allow it to run without water for flood work, for instance.)

We're officially open for business Sept 1, in our new location.

 

[hogjowl]

You talkin about me, Doodaddy?