Bashing VLM

[tmdry]

If we all learn to use tools properly we wouldn't come onto a message board to whine about who uses what. Who cares of what so n so says on their site, everyone's site is made by whoever wishes to run their own business. Let them do what they want, and do whatever you think it's proper for your business. Negative selling other competitors is not a good thing in the client’s eye, and will make you look like the loser in the end of the day. It's thought in many sales courses, marketing courses, college, and so forth.

Once you buy an OP (not 175) and use everything to your best advantage find out what works better for you, you see the people that talk from experience and use both methods don't go on a message board and cry about who says what on their site, maybe we should all look into that and everyone will be a better cleaner.

Les has also used OP machines, and has said great things about them, now he has made an encap and I believe also sell op machines. Most of the mods here also have the same type of machines and use them along w/ their other equipment. Learn how to integrate OP w/ HWE, and you will be the best cleaner hands down.

Clients don't care what you use, telling clients over and over about equipment makes you the professional look desperate. Do you also tell them everything about your glides, wands, hoses, pre sprays, etc? Concentrate on benefits, outcomes, results, at the end of the day the client will not care nor remember anything about equipment, they expect results. My dentists never talks to me about equipment, he goes over results, benefits, etc.

Any one of us, who have both and use both methods, can out clean any cleaner hands down that uses one method only...don't even try, you will fail.

 

[CleanEvo]

Talking about steam cleaners using 180 gallons an hour is pretty missleading.
How much flow a system has does not mean they're using that much water in an hour.

 

[Mikey P]

Clients don't care what you use, telling clients over and over about equipment makes you the professional look desperate.

Maybe first timers don't but those that clean on a regular basis do, a lot.



Home owners with pets and a sharp eye will see and feel a difference with a well formulated HWE cleaning over any sort of pad method.

 

[Walrus Gumboot]

"Negative selling other competitors is not a good thing in the client’s eye, and will make you look like the loser in the end of the day. It's thought in many sales courses, marketing courses, college, and so forth."

Oh, okay.

"Squish is not a sound that carpet should make."
Worked pretty well for themdry.

 

[Padden McFadden]

Some good points there Bill.
I use both methods, Here is what my experience has been...

When I OP a job the customer almost always says "that's the best results I've ever had" When I HWE a job they say the same thing. I've been called in to fix hack hwe work, and also been called in to fix hack vlm work. Maybe just maybe there's something to be said about the operator?

As far as some people not liking HWE? Has NOTHING to do with VLMers bashing it, and EVER THING to do with lazy ass HWE operators who don't know or care about what they do for a living. People who have had a bad experience with a steam cleaner tend to shop for a vlm cleaner next time. And the reverse is also true. I would rather my customers love me rather than my method because I;m not the only guy in the world who uses a method.

 

[John G.]

Home owners with pets and a sharp eye will see and feel a difference with a well formulated HWE cleaning over any sort of pad method.
Maybe in the land of nuts fruits and flakes, wait a minute I worked San Diego for 15 years and never had that problem... must be horsefeathers....

 

[Ryan]

John after reading through your post I would say your probably one of the best OPer's out there (and a douchbag). Take the average tech train him with HWE for a month and OP for a month then send him into a custys home, which method do you think will turn out better?

 

[John G.]

LOL, I have spent a life taking away HWE guys jobs.

You can give me all the crap you want, but I willing prove what I do daily, and your opinion means very little.

Virtually all my customers were hwe users until they had VLM.

Fortunately, I won't call you any names, because I don't know you, but given the chance on some good dirty carpet, I would enjoy
making a fool of you.

Years in Trade: 3

Typical stupid remark from a newby!

 

[steve frasier]

John is a VLM god

 

[Walrus Gumboot]

How appropriate is that?

 

[Ryan]

I said your seem to be great at what you do.... I understand that you've been doing this for years.

You sidesteped my question, if one tech is trained with OP and one with HWE for a month then sent out to clean which do you think will get better results?

 

[steve frasier]

Ryan doesn't get it do he :shock:

 

[rhino1]

Well my experience has been that I would not EVER take one of those ragspinners into a home without actually cleaning it first.
I used to be a ragspinner and saw the other side of the argument. Listen to that little voice inside your head that knows you are not really cleaning the carpet, hope that little Johnny that's just learniing to walk doesn't develop some kind of lung disease from some magical crystallizing formula that you "helpfully" leave behind in his home.

Come on, get for real man! I don't know how the hell you people live with yourself leaving that crap in somebody's home and claiming it's a healthy, natural way. Yeah, I guess if you call dying natural, I guess you're helping along with that. All these polymers and film formers, crystallizers - what do you think that stuff is doing in little Johnny's respiratory tract when he bounces off the floor about a thousand times learning to walk?

What about the heavy sediments and sand you rub around on the carpet with your ragspinners - good for the carpet? What about all the sediments you leave behind because there is no type of flushing or vacuuming going on?

I know, I know- real equipment is just so darned expensive, and... well, there are just so many knobs and buttons you have to learn to use. It's so much easier to just ignore that voice in your head and continue to lie to everyone about how harmful it is to actually do some real cleaning.

 

[Mikey P]

I sort of remember making a fool of some VLM god in my garage a few years back.

 

[Guest]

I sort of remember making a fool of some VLM god in my garage a few years back.

A number of us remember watching that........

 

[Ron Werner]

I can believe John converted some HWE custies. I get HWE guys commenting on my youtube vid, ie one thats been cleaning for 22 yrs, that says he can do what I do in half the time for half the money. These are the HWE techs that I took customers from when I was using a portable!
The biggest challenge of our industry is techs that are speed demons, they want to charge as much as they can (even at a reasonable rate) but be in and out as fast as they can, clean 6 houses in one day.

I don't care whether you use VLM or HWE, just do it right. Change the dang pads more often, vacuum either way,

 

[Al]

We have most methods available, 99% of the time we use HWE. We do not bash other cleaners methods 8)



Well, cept in my signiture :roll:

 

[John G.]

I remember a set up Mikey, with a carpet that "neither of us cleaner"
I remember a white carpet that was even up on results.
I remember having my two motel rooms done before you guys got started.
I remember the motel manager asking me to reclean what tierra clean had done.

 

[Ron Werner]

how fast did they fly through the room with HWE.

If speed and ready use is a concern, go VLM. Of course its faster, less setup, less prep.
If it only took me 10 min to vac a room, some HWE guys would have been in and out before I even finish prepping.
Depends on what the need is.

 

[John G.]

The issue wasn't cleaning Time Ron, it was setup time.

 

[hogjowl]

Just how long did it take them to set you up, John?

 

[Padden McFadden]

Ron,
You don't know me, But I've seen your video's and I have to say your one of my cleaning hero's (seriously)

But I think I got you beat?
I spend 4 hours on prevac,(per room)

First I use my proteam, then my powerflite, then my dyson, then my bissle. Then go on to the next room. Then after I clean,

I wait till it's bone dry (4-6 hours) Then I post vac in the same fashion. 4 hours per room

My production rate is about 47 hours to do a home. Then I wait there for 7 days watching the carpet

just on the off chance something wicks back. !gotcha!

 

[John G.]

Don't know the minutes, but long enough that when I got finished Terry was the first one to get cleaning but I was done.

 

[Guest]

opee is to cleaning what a hat is to a bad hair day....

 

[randy]

LOL, I have spent a life taking away HWE guys jobs.

You can give me all the crap you want, but I willing prove what I do daily, and your opinion means very little.

Virtually all my customers were hwe users until they had VLM.

Fortunately, I won't call you any names, because I don't know you, but given the chance on some good dirty carpet, I would enjoy
making a fool of you.

Years in Trade: 3

Typical stupid remark from a newby!

John G: To answer your earlier question THIS WHOLE THREAD seems like Deja vu , especially the above.
Three years in the trade, he could "teach" you a lot. :roll:

 

[Ryan]

I think you guys are missing my point. I said John seems to be the best VLM guy on here (from what I've read) I've never met him, and with him doing it he may be able to out clean HWE guys.

But if he can't quickly train techs to do a good job with his method how fast can he grow his company? I mean is it resonable to invest 1 year or even 3 months into training a tech just to have him quit a few weeks later? Correct me if I'm wrong but the biggest expense in this business is labor.

I have 3 years experince.... want to know something else? I'm 19. I have two vans, a bunch of floor care equipment,my personal vehical paid for. I have a small amount left and my TM will be paid for. I'm on here to learn, but I don't look up too the guys who are the best cleaners in the industry, is being the absoulte best cleaner out there going to make me wealthy?

Cause hell, I do enjoy what I do but I'm doing it to increase the bottom line not to get my rocks off to the fact that I'm the best cleaner in the world. The guys I look up to in the industry are the ones with successful multi truck operations. Ken Snow, Harper, and even... Greg Cole :shock: come to mind. All use HWE btw...

Out of curisoty what doesa a VLM guy do for heavy pet urine?

I do use a bonnet after HWE nasty resturants traffic lanes after reading Mikeys post about it.. and I love the results, but can't see using it as a stand alone method in someone elses house.

And did you notice ChemDry switched from VLM to using tms.. Not true HWE still I know but alot closer then they where before.. They have 2500 locations as much as we all hate them at times they must be doing something right.

 

[John G.]

John after reading through your post I would say your probably one of the best OPer's out there (and a douchbag)
I said John seems to be the best VLM guy on here (from what I've read) I've never met him, and with him doing it he may be able to out clean HWE guys.



Well you DID change the way you said it a bit...LOL

Out of curisoty what does a VLM guy do for heavy pet urine?
Urine

Urine is not a friend to any method, however like most any other situation it can be treated successfully. The main problem is getting to the problem I.e. Urine contamination. Urine does not stay on the surface. Pets urinate on the carpet and gravity takes over and takes it to the backing and the pad. No method of “cleaning” removes the urine contamination from the backing, so what are we to do?

We can “treat” the urine problem chemically but we must wet the carpet as “least” as much as the pet did. We have to chemically come in contact with the urine to address it.

Topically, WHAMM, PadCapPro, Abstraction UrOut or similar products will kill the dog urine or dog smell problem. The colloidal silver components of these products are very effective in killing the bacteria that causes the odor in canine urine deposits.

However once in the backing or pad, these products as with most any other topically applied products are incapable of dealing with hidden urine deposits. For cats the problem is ammonia which takes a bit more than colloidal silver to correct and kill.

First you must know how much urine you are dealing with, and while sometimes it is obvious because of all the stains, at other times you can not SEE where the pet has gone. So to ensure you are attacking ALL of the contamination it is imperative to utilize a Black light to be able to see where the pet has gone.

It may be necessary to cover the windows with sheets or towels or something to darken the room somewhat. Then walk slowly over the room examining all areas, pay special attention to the corners or edges of wall as felines seem to be attracted to these areas.

Once you have found all the areas the pet has contaminated, it is time for the PeeRadicator to be mixed up. Make sure when mixing that you do NOT put PeeRadicator into a pressurized or closed system. It could explode a sprayer.
We mix it up in either a 5 gallon bucket or a gallon jug. Also make sure you stir it until the powder is dissolved into the water. Now it is ready to use.

PeeRadicator is a dry compound that is mixed with hot water is made for attacking the urine contamination under the surface, you need to “pour” enough on the urine spot at a rate “at least” as much as the pet did. In other works a small spot the size of a silver dollar, make take ½ a cup of PeeRadicator to reach the same area the urine did under the carpet. The stain on the backing or padding could well be 6-8 inches in diameter and if you are going to solve the urine problem you have to make contact with the whole area under the carpet that is contaminated.

On large areas we soak the whole area, mixing PeeRadicator at 8 ounces of dry power per gallon, we may make up 15-20 gallons at a time. Pour it in, work it in with your oscillator and a wet pad so as to aid in getting it ALL OVER the area, let it dwell 20-30 minutes and OPEN THE WINDOWS because when the PeeRadicator makes contact with the urine it is going to reactivate it and smell to high heavens.


(Tip) Warn the customer that it is going to smell terrible and be very strong for about a ½ an hour. But this is required if the urine is going to be killed.



Now that it has soaked and the smell is diminishing, you can, ( a ) extract with a portable or tm, ( b ) you can extract with a water claw, ( c ) dry it up with dry pads. For “C” you will not get the carpet nearly as dry, however, I explain to the customer that the area is no wetter than when the pet urinated. Then Pre-spray with WHAMM, or PadCapPro and clean as usual. You can use other encap products however, WHAMM and PadCapPro are the only two encap products that utilize the colloidal silver technology and aid in killing odor and sanitizing the carpet. But you should use “a” encap product of some kind to encap the white powder residue that the PeeRadicator will leave on the carpet once dry.

This method of urine contamination correction has been extremely successful, you will often hear your competitors say it doesn’t work, you need to FLUSH the carpet out, this is simply not true, often the introduction of too much water will make matters worse and more difficult to deal with than chemical contamination control methods like the one prescribed above.

If you are going to pad dry the carpet, it is often wise to use an air mover to aid in the drying times. We do not like to leave the carpet wet for more than 2-4 hours.

Now when dry the carpet can be vacuumed up and the problem is resolved.

 

[John G.]

I do use a bonnet after HWE nasty resturants traffic lanes after reading Mikeys post about it.. and I love the results, but can't see using it as a stand alone method in someone elses house.


I can't either, but then I don't use rotaries nor bonnets.

 

[Wayne Miller]

Ryan, the impetus behind CD's move away from the traditional bonnet process was the expiration of a patent.

 

[randy]

In Regard to urine removal : The whole concept of pouring enormous amounts of a urine removal enzyme , odor encapsulate or odor counteractant through a carpet and into the pad, for final "removal" with a water claw (or other subsurface tool) is nothing short of ignorant. This method was devised by the inventor of the water claw to sell water claws to a wider swap of cleaners, since only a small percentage of cleaners are into water damage. Now he can sell the water claw to janitorial / maid companies for spot removal, in house corporate cleaners, and carpet cleaners. Great for water claw, but not so great for the cleaner that falls for the concept or their customer for several reasons.

1) Adding water /mixed urine solution to a urine spot by pouring it down with a bucket is exacerbating the problem by spreading around a previously concentrated spot. That makes your job harder.

2) You are now soaking the sub flooring (which maybe wood) and the pad which of course can be everything from a sponge like material to a padding that more resembles a multi-layer wool blanket. Many new cleaners aren't familiar with carpet padding, especially what was used 20 years ago and is still out there in great abundance. Wetting the padding in an attempt to rinse the padding and sub-flooring is a very bad idea as you will never get all of the liquid out. When a water claw is used for water damage extraction, blowers & dehumidifiers are used and sometimes even then the padding must be removed. Are you bringing in dehumidifiers & blowers / fans for urine abatement ?

3) There may be a previous mold issue and when you start pouring water on their carpet the dormant problem can reappear and now you own it. It would be very easy for any attorney to wipe the floor dry with everything you own. Gross negligence is never covered by insurance and that is exactly what your insurance company would waive in an attempt to avoid paying a claim. Perhaps they wouldn't get the court to rule it meets the requirement for classification as gross negligence, but the point is your insurance carrier may not be your friend in litigation. Don't do borderline goofball stuff that looks wacky to a potential jury (which will not be comprised of IICRC trained techs ).

Every musty smell in your customer's basement will be your constant advertising for years to come, even if it wasn't your fault.


Use a black light and/ urine detector (moisture meter) and show the customer the results. Treat each spot with a quality product and clean the carpet. Apply a post treatment. If the problem remains the pad needs to replaced and perhaps even the carpet. The problem is then back on the customer, let them decide what they want to do to remedy their problem.

Don't make a customer's choice to have animals that piss on the carpet in their home your nagging problem and potential liability. Use a great disclaimer of warranty /guarantee on urine work, it's never a sure thing.

The average urine spraying CAT produces 4-6 oz a day. That is like 17 gallons of urine a year into the carpet, you can't rinse that out of a carpet pad by turning a urine issue into a water damage job (done for free).