Bashing VLM

[Ron Werner]

the soln used when clawing is not just water. I apply a product to deodourize, sanitize, and dissolve the urine salts, in the same way John describes. Then I can extract the source. If you remove the source, its not going to smell.

I've tried the fire and forget treatments, never found one that really did the job. Then again, Pee Eradicator was never offered by my supplier.
Best of both worlds, mix up PeeErad, then water claw it.
If John applies of PeeErad to a urine spot in "equal amounts" as the urine, won't it soak through to the backing and the floor, considering it has to go where the urine went? He leaves no dehum or airmover, just explains it will remain as wet as the original urine spot. With a water claw we can remove over half (conservatively) of the liquid, allowing it to dry faster.


Andy, I only vacuum as much as I need to. Average house takes 45 min, not 2 hours.
At least if a VLMer doesn't vacuum they haven't created mud in the backing, it just stays there.

 

[randy]

If you reread my post you will see I understand the waterclaw quite well and didn't claim anyone was using just water (not that it would surprise me). That being said I have seen the results of this on sub flooring, musty smells you can't get rid of and MOLD.

With the pad and sub flooring wet and no dehumidifiers to dry it down you are just creating the perfect environment for mold.
The solutions being poured are mostly comprised of water. The additives will not prevent mold, mildew or musty basements that seem to last forever. Mold can start growing in a matter of hours, and it can take weeks for a wet pad to dry. That alone should make it quite obvious that it's totally ignorant to soak a carpet pad. On a glue down carpet it would just delaminate the backing.

If someone 10-20 years in the business can't see that they kind of deserve the inevitable outcome, I just don't like seeing newbies sucked into a nightmare by water claw salesmen.

Saturating the pad is always a very bad thing, that's why so much is spent on water damage remediation, powerful truck mounts and super-blowers. Buying a truckmount with a 56 blower and then turning around and pouring liquid to solve a pet problem is just really, really dumb. With all the industry focus on fast dry downs after water damage & the mold issues, I can't believe people are still doing this.

By the way if you believe you are removing the source do a little research on how much a cat sprays. You can never remove all of the salt crystals left behind by urine. I have seen tear outs where cleaners have been doing the water claw urine removal technique and they are disgusting. Often parts of the sub flooring needs to be replaced.

 

[Ron Werner]

Ok then, how do you solve a deep urine problem without tearing up the carpet considering John pours soln on the carpet and that's how I've been taught for years, either with the claw or injection needles.

 

[Greg Cole]

Cause hell, I do enjoy what I do but I'm doing it to increase the bottom line not to get my rocks off to the fact that I'm the best cleaner in the world. The guys I look up to in the industry are the ones with successful multi truck operations. Ken Snow, Harper, and even... Greg Cole :shock: come to mind. All use HWE btw...

quote]

What's this "EVEN" crap?! lol Ahh to be 19 again.... Arrogant little prick...... :x

Nevertheless, Here is a tip for you. It is one that most will never realize and even fewer implement. "You must find your own way. You must find a methodoly that appeals to you. Learn it, tweak it, and stick to it. This should apply to all aspects of your business." Too many business people try to duplicate success. They copy ads, copy placement, copy systems, but more often than not: they those eventually go out of business.

Find a mentor. Setup weekly phone calls, monthly lunches, and quarterly outings. Have specific questions and be prepared to write down the answers.
Perhaps pick up a book on the mentoring relationship.

 

[joe harper]

What's this "EVEN" crap?! lol Ahh to be 19 again.... Arrogant little prick......


thathurts Little tough on the young man.."Don't you think...?"

Very classey Greg...

 

[Ryan]

What's this "EVEN" crap?! lol Ahh to be 19 again.... Arrogant little prick...... :x

lol I put that cause a lot of people on here look down on you for your business model.

Its ok Harper I have a thick skin.... with a personality like mine I have no choice but too have one shiteatinggrin

 

[joe harper]

What's this "EVEN" crap?! lol Ahh to be 19 again.... Arrogant little prick...... :x

lol I put that cause a lot of people on here look down on you for your business model.

Its ok Harper I have a thick skin.... with a personality like mine I have no choice but too have one shiteatinggrin

Ryan,

I am flattered...that you would mention me in the same sentance as Ken...
However we are NOT anywhere in the Ball Park as Ken...We currently are only operating
2 box trucks & 1 Van...Ken runs aprox.24 Butlers...

At one time we did run 6 vans...but we have downsized..for a various reasons...!
I appreciate your kind words and will always make myself available for any questions..


Ps..I started my business when I was 19 years old... :wink:

 

[randy]

Ok then, how do you solve a deep urine problem without tearing up the carpet considering John pours soln on the carpet and that's how I've been taught for years, either with the claw or injection needles.

Enzyme Injects are fine, big difference than pouring solution through the carpet and into the pad /sub flooring and attempting removal with a water claw to "rinse" out the pad & sub-flooring. You can very easily cause a bigger, more expensive to solve problem and one that you get blamed for.

 

[Ron Werner]

[
Nevertheless, Here is a tip for you. It is one that most will never realize and even fewer implement. "You must find your own way. You must find a methodoly that appeals to you. Learn it, tweak it, and stick to it. This should apply to all aspects of your business." Too many business people try to duplicate success. They copy ads, copy placement, copy systems, but more often than not: they those eventually go out of business.

Find a mentor. Setup weekly phone calls, monthly lunches, and quarterly outings. Have specific questions and be prepared to write down the answers.
Perhaps pick up a book on the mentoring relationship.

If its a successful busn, it should be duplicatable. Just don't do it in the same town. 8)
Learn what works, what doesn't, and what you're willing to say is good enough. Its one thing to copy ads, its another to understand the mindset behind the ad. You also have to back up the "talk" once you get a call. Make your busn your own.
As Greg said, find a mentor, or more, people you can call on. Make sure they are where you want to be.

 

[Greg Cole]

What's this "EVEN" crap?! lol Ahh to be 19 again.... Arrogant little prick...... :x

lol I put that cause a lot of people on here look down on you for your business model.

Its ok Harper I have a thick skin.... with a personality like mine I have no choice but too have one shiteatinggrin

No worries - I understood. I was smiling as I wrote that last night! Arrogant little pricks usually become the best businessmen. The fact that you are hungry for knowledge will serve you well. Seriously, find a mentor (NO - I am not offering) and learn from him.Preferably one that has achieved a level of success far greater than you can ever dream to achieve. Be humble and listen. Your age will be your biggest challenge as you attempt to grow a multi-truck operation. I started mine at 22 - fresh out of school - and had a heck of a time with all the "I have shoes older than you" garbage. A mentor will help you overcome this.

 

[steve frasier]

if you consider all things from set up to clean up, VLM isn't faster

 

[John G.]

That's horseshit.

 

[rhino1]

That's horseshit.

Actually, I agree. I don't think it take any more time to use a TM than to OP or cimex. I know I used to move more stuff because I couldn't get under it with a cimex. Then factor in how much more time it used to take to make a carpet "look" clean without actually cleaning it.

I also recall paying alot more for chems. than I do now.

 

[randy]

Depends on the job, sometimes VLM takes much longer and sometimes it takes 1/3 the time of HWE. There is a time and place for everything. There are jobs I would hate to VLM and there are jobs I would hate to HWE. Honestly there are a few jobs that I would rather not do regardless of the method, LOL.

 

[everfresh1]

His equipment sprayed pressurized water into the carpet at a rate of three gallons per minute, or one hundred-eighty gallons per hour. His concern? At that rate, even if ninety percent of the water were recovered there could still be as much as eighteen gallons unaccounted

:roll: Thats bull, The only way you are going to be using three gals a minute, Is if you have the wand triggered for the the whole minute. What idiot would use a wand that way? I will say though, I do have a commercial job that has a lot of coffee spots that always resurface win I steam clean the place, That was my first post on this board. Now I bonnet in between steaming seems to be a good compliment to use in the interim between steaming. I wouldn't use it on any residential though. :mrgreen:

 

[Guest]

I remember having my two motel rooms done before you guys got started.

Ya...and rubbing out a quick one by yourself IS faster than taking your time with a girl...


At the end of the day, which is more satisfying, leaving everyone with a smile?

 

[John G.]

36 years of smiles Chuckie.

 

[Wayne Miller]

Is it bull, Jamie, or is it the flow rate? Is 3 GPM now 1.5 GPM because you triggered it only 50% of the time? The cumulative total of 3 GPM is 180 GPH. Whether it's in 5 or 10 or 30 or 3600 second increments it's 180 GPH. I don't know about anybody else but when there was a TM in my van we could burn through 180 gallons in the course of three or four average cleanings easily. The same three or four average cleanings we can do with 18 gallons with low-moisture.

Our point is to show the difference in water usage. I'll agree it was ambiguous. We changed wording so there's no confusion.

 

[everfresh1]

Is 3 GPM now 1.5 GPM because you triggered it only 50% of the time?

Yes

The cumulative total of 3 GPM is 180 GPH. Whether it's in 5 or 10 or 30 or 3600 second increments it's 180 GPH.

Well..it makes a difference if your spreading it around on 8 jobs as opposed to 4 doesn't it? If your leaving 18gals (which I don't agree with, its probably half that) on 4 jobs thats 4.5 gals of water left on each job if it's 8 jobs than its 2.25 gal left on each.

 

[rhino1]

Is it bull, Jamie, or is it the flow rate? Is 3 GPM now 1.5 GPM because you triggered it only 50% of the time? The cumulative total of 3 GPM is 180 GPH. Whether it's in 5 or 10 or 30 or 3600 second increments it's 180 GPH. I don't know about anybody else but when there was a TM in my van we could burn through 180 gallons in the course of three or four average cleanings easily. The same three or four average cleanings we can do with 18 gallons with low-moisture.

Our point is to show the difference in water usage. I'll agree it was ambiguous. We changed wording so there's no confusion.

I use hi-flow and I don't go thru 180 gallons in 10 jobs, much less leave that much behind.

We have a 10K sf library we do that we use 150 gallons on in the course of 10 hours of steady cleaning.

Your comparison IS misleading and you are trying to scare the consumer into using you. Bane-clene does the same thing, as well as CD, so it's not anything new.

The local ragspinners last about 2 years before they run out of marks. CD is dying here.

So, what about the crystallizing residue and these hi-tech polymers- has any long-term testing been done as to the effects they might have on occupants of a residence, or how they affect the air quality of a home? I bet not.... That's going to make a good topic for my next newsletter and if I was battling VLM for customers that is what I would focus on, along with the fact that you are leaving a breeding ground for all kinds of little nasties.

 

[DavidVB]

Is anyone flowing 3 GPM even if the wand is triggered constantly? We run 5 02s and since we run a long 1/4 inch live solution line, I set my pressure based on the actual GPM I get into a bucket. It takes about 800 psi at the truck to get 2 GPM which is pretty strong flow.

If you are going to compare water usage, are you including the water used to wash pads?

I don't think it is right to say that VLM doesn't clean and that you are just swirling dirt around. Debate if it cleans as well, but those of us who have used it know it can do a pretty good job on some carpets.

One reason John is fast is he doesn't vacuum first. He only post vacuums. When we VLM I just can't see that. I think even more time should be spent vacuuming. I also can't see using the same vacuum before and after, so now I need to carry around 2 vacuums. If the edges are soiled, you need to bring in hand tools to deal with that. Cleaning stairs with a small pad machine or a drill is slow and a pain, especially if the edges are soiled. More hand work.

Which is faster? Depends on the job. The benefit to VLM is the lower initial cost of the system and not having to fool with a truckmount.

 

[Wayne Miller]

You've got magic self-adjusting jets, Jamie. I'd patent those puppies.

I guess your average job isn't as big and is a lot cleaner than ours, Chris. And, what do polymers have to do with anything? Last time I checked NoSoap had none.

 

[everfresh1]

You've got magic self-adjusting jets, Jamie. I'd patent those puppies

I'm not really sure what you mean, When I'm cleaning a carpet I'm not soaking the hell out of the carpet you've got to work the wand almost like a painter with a spray gun. :mrgreen:

 

[Johnny]

Why are some VLMers proud of using less water? More water = more thorough rinse. If the issue is water left in the carpet after the job, a properly-operated truckmount will leave no more water than VLM AFTER A THOROUGH RINSE.

Shameful Chem-Lies.

I'm not bashing VLM. VLM has its place in my toolbox. I am bashing deception.

 

[Wayne Miller]

All I'm saying is the rate of flow is unchanging. A 3 second burst at 3 GPM is a 3 GPM, 3 second burst. Duration doesn't change rate of flow. What you're talking about is the amount used per hour and the closest yardstick for that is what's sitting in the waste tank.

I agree, Johnny, not a thing wrong with a good thorough rinsing. Sometimes I use a lot.....just a little at a time. A good thorough rinsing, though, isn't complete without a lot of good thorough dry strokes. Maybe not in your neighborhood, but in mine there's shortage of good, thorough dry stokes. Some of the folks in our neck of the woods find it a little inconvenient waiting a day or two for their carpets to dry and actively look for a faster-drying, low-moisture alternative.

What I like about these folks is they're generally well educated, have nice homes, take care of their stuff, have descretionary income, are loyal till death, talk to their friends and don't mind paying a living wage to sit on a clean, dry carpet when the O'Reilly Factor comes on that night.

Inevitably they ask, "what makes you different?" The short answer is, "we use less water." The long answer is to explain what that means.

Please don't take anything I type too seriously. I like HWE as much as I do VLM. For now, we service a niche. A profitable niche and a niche largley ingored and under utilized by most of our local competition.

 

[John G.]

If you are going to compare water usage, are you including the water used to wash pads?
Sure, 13 gallons of water to clean 45 pads in my commercial front loader.

One reason John is fast is he doesn't vacuum first. He only post vacuums.
I prevac wherever it is needed, just I have most my customers trained to do it right before I get there.

I also can't see using the same vacuum before and after, so now I need to carry around 2 vacuums.
That is goofy, I don't dirty carpets in the post vacuum process, what are you doing wrong?
Cleaning stairs with a small pad machine or a drill is slow and a pain, especially if the edges are soiled. More hand work.
What an everage of 10-15 minutes for a flight of stairs is too long? And only that long if they are quite soiled.

More water = more thorough rinse.
That is a bogus argument, it doesn't take a flood to rinse, if you rinsing is so dang great why after you rinse can OP
bring up a ton of dirty pads? And YES it does.

If the issue is water left in the carpet after the job, a properly-operated truckmount will leave no more water than VLM
Hummm, then why does it always take LONGER to dry?

Pray tell, what type of VLM have you been doing anyways?

 

[Guest]

One reason John is fast is he doesn't vacuum first.

Another is he doesn't REALLY clean, he just quickly wipes.

Would you want to go down on your SO after her period if she just wiped, or would ya like her to shower???

 

[Johnny]

More water = more thorough rinse.
That is a bogus argument, it doesn't take a flood to rinse, if you rinsing is so dang great why after you rinse can OP
bring up a ton of dirty pads? And YES it does.

Of course it doesn't take a flood to rinse, but a truckmount will rinse much more effectively than VLM. A post-HWE padding will sometimes get more dirt, but this is sometimes dirt that has wicked up from deep where VLM doesn't reach. Post-padding some HWE jobs is where VLM shines. (I can also get dirty water in my rinse tank after a VLM job.)

If the issue is water left in the carpet after the job, a properly-operated truckmount will leave no more water than VLM
Hummm, then why does it always take LONGER to dry?

Most truckmounts, especially with Greenie's pimps, can leave a carpet dry (and rinsed) within 2 hours. Even less time if necessary.

Pray tell, what type of VLM have you been doing anyways?

Using the machines, pads, and chems I bought from you. I have also used stuff from Vac-Away, FloorMaster, CTI and Judson.

In my experience, VLM is a valuable tool, but not a good stand-alone system.

 

[John G.]

Maybe there is a lack of experience then?

 

[Johnny]

Maybe there is a lack of experience then?

I don't have 36 years of VLM experience, but I think I bought my first OP machine from you about five years ago and have VLMed a lot of every type of carpet. How much experience does it take?