Can a TM be built simple and still practical?

[Duane Oxley]

I've fixed them over the phone in as little as 10 seconds...

Customer: "Hey, Duane. I can't get my vacuum level to work right, and I was wondering if you could help."

Me: "Did you just dump your tank?"

Customer: "Oh, shit! Gotta go. Thanks."

 

[hogjowl]

LOL! Man, I bet there's not one of us who hasn't done that before!

 

[Ron Werner]

you're right, 10 min might be an exaggeration,

Probably take 15 or 20 by the time you were up and running again.

Judson and Les sure knows how to design a TM

 

[RichardnTn]

Let me clarify my statement. Once I manually light the burner, then the remainder of the day, the ignitor works fine." I always turn the propane and regulator off after each job. Sometimes it works first thing in the mornings.
What Duane said is right.... is is shorting out somewhere because the voltage is so high that it will spark thru the insulation on the wire before it gets to the propane... Richard R

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Questions for Leslie and/or Larry:

On the hypro pump, 3rd pic down from top, it is plumbed using all four (2 inflow and 2 outflow) connections but in the 5th pic down 1 inflow and 1 outflow are capped off. Why is that?

On the advertising flyer above is says the recommended RPMs for that 18hp Vanguard is 2900. I have a 21hp and I was told never to go over 1700 RPMs. I know if I run higher I will get more heat and better suction. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,

In regards to your question about the pump hoses.
Most pumps have 2 inlets and 2 outlets. Usually you just use one pump inlet from your supply water, and on the outlet, one goes to your regulator and then the water goes to your heating source.
The other outlet can be used for other things like pressure gauge's, but usually we just use one outlet and manifold afterwords.

As far as your engine rpm, most engines have a torque curve that peaks at 3000 rpm. This is where the engine is producing the maximum amount of torque and is most efficient. As the rpm increases you will see that the torque curve starts dropping off and starts loosing horse power.
The reason that the engine does this, is that it is loosing efficiency as the rpm's pass the peak torque curve. As far as you increasing your engine rpm to 3000, it will depend on your gearing situation to your components.
Just give me a call and we will figure out your ratio's.

 

[Steve Smith]

"As the rpm increases you will see that the torque curve starts dropping off and starts loosing horse power. "

Starts loosing horse power?
Are you sure about that?

 

[Tahoesteve]

Thanks for the info Leslie...I will give you a call next week.

That pic looks exactly like the one in my unit. Ever since I've had this unit I have been going through fuel pumps(the little diaphragm black one on the right side of the B&S motor) about every 3 months. The last time it happened, we(me and a small engine mechanic) took apart the carb and he recommended removing the regulator valve pin that is located at the underside of the carb. Ever since then it has been running great. He really couldn't explain to me the purpose of that needle pin but said it would help

On my next job I will bump up the rpm's to 3000 and see how she runs.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Les, I got a feeling you're gonna be selling a lot of these. What type of chemical injection system does it use?

Dirk,

We use a siphon chemical injection system. We use the suction of the pump to draw the chemical. We've tried all types, and this seems to be the most trouble free way of doing it.

Les

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Thanks for the info Leslie...I will give you a call next week.

That pic looks exactly like the one in my unit. Ever since I've had this unit I have been going through fuel pumps(the little diaphragm black one on the right side of the B&S motor) about every 3 months. The last time it happened, we(me and a small engine mechanic) took apart the carb and he recommended removing the regulator valve pin that is located at the underside of the carb. Ever since then it has been running great. He really couldn't explain to me the purpose of that needle pin but said it would help

On my next job I will bump up the rpm's to 3000 and see how she runs.

Steve,

The pin that he removed was the fuel shut off to the carburator. It's ok to remove it, as long as you let the engine idle before shutting it down.
What the pin is actually for, is to prevent it from backfiring during shut down at higher rpm's. The black pulse pump that you are talking about, can be bypassed, as long as you have and electric fuel pump with no more than 1.5 PSI.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

"As the rpm increases you will see that the torque curve starts dropping off and starts loosing horse power. "

Starts loosing horse power?
Are you sure about that?

Steve,

If you will look at the graph that I have posted. In the ledger, the solid black line is the horsepower curve. We set our engines at 3000 RPM's, and when the engine is under load, the RPM will drop back to the peak torque curve. your right the max hp is 3600 hpm

Les

 

[Jay D]

The advantage at running at Higher rpms is IF you are direct coupled to the vacuum blower= More CFM. Even if you had it set at 3600 rpms with no load, it will generally drop 200-300 rpms under load. At least thats what my 30 hp does with the 47 blower. Just my observation. Why do some manufacturers run there aircooled engines less then 3000 rpms? Is it for longevity? Just wondering.

 

[Supersucker]

Duane, the more I work with my Spitfire the more I love your machines!
As easy to access as your machine is, i would think you could loose about 4 hoses by mounting the regulator & press. gauge on the pump manifold itself. Any reason you don't do this?
Oh and do you believe in a blower lube port, cause I never see one on your machine?
Keep us posted on the developments.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Thanks...

It's true, I could make them simpler. I could put the regulator and pressure gage on the pump, for instance, and eliminate 2 hoses. I could bypass back to the water tank, but that would result in inconsistent metering, since my systems inject into the pump. There are several things that come to mind. But that's crossing a line that I generally don't cross... building a system for "My" convenience, vs. "Your" convenience.

It's more convenient for you, to be able to glance at the front panel and read all the gages. And it's more convenient for you, if you don't have to reach into the machine to adjust the pressure. And, making those things possible, doesn't make the machine more complicated, the way I see it. It makes it take a little longer to put together, but the rest of the gages are up front, so one more won't really matter. And the pressure gage feeds directly from it, etc.

Almost from "Day 1"... definitely from "Year 1", I've provided lube ports for the blower. It's always next to the motor, usually to the right. And it ties into the vacuum line that leads to the vacuum gage. Here's an example on a previous- style Predator Unleashed!:

If you look at the gray hose on the right, you'll see that it leads from the vacuum gauge, "up", to a brass fitting, which is a 45- degree street Ell, via a Tee on the bottom of the Ell. One leg of the Tee screws onto the Ell, and the other two legs have hose barbs in them. One barb connects to the pressure gauge and the other connects to the blower via another gray hose. The 45- degree Ell has a pipe plug in it, that you screw out in order to lube the blower.

Thanks again for your kind words... 8)

 

[Duane Oxley]

Jay...

I set all of the systems I make at 3,200 RPM. To me it's a good balance between noise level and performance, with smoothness of the operation and vacuum level being how, "performance" is evaluated.

I've heard of others being set at as low as 2,800 (Steam Genie used to, if I remember correctly), but they used Onan motors, that had different performance characteristics...

It's not "just" at what speed they reach maximum torque. Air- cooled motors run cooler when they run faster. And since that's how they cool themselves (unlike water- cooled), they do better at higher speeds in that regard....

 

[Duane Oxley]

Not to you, Terry...

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

The advantage at running at Higher rpms is IF you are direct coupled to the vacuum blower= More CFM. Even if you had it set at 3600 rpms with no load, it will generally drop 200-300 rpms under load. At least thats what my 30 hp does with the 47 blower. Just my observation. Why do some manufacturers run there aircooled engines less then 3000 rpms? Is it for longevity? Just wondering.

Jay,

The reason's that manufacturor's run and engine at a set rpm, is that the engine manufacturer recommends this. The engine manufacturer recommends running the engine at the peak torque curve for a set constant load, which is exactly what we are doing. At this rpm, the engine is the most efficient. This efficiency saves you in fuel cost, and this efficiency extends the life of the engine considerably.

 

[Jay D]

So Les or duane do you know what the the 30hp kohler is suppose to run at with the hoses attached? Just curious. Right now I got it set at 3600 with no load and about 3350 with a load on.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Hey, Jay...

I don't know about "supposed to". But in my experience, the system shouldn't drop more than a couple hundred RPM under full load.

How fast they run is all a matter of taste within the above. I prefer to run a bit faster than the Judsons, from what's been said, because the faster they run, the better the vacuum. On my systems, they're direct coupled, so there's a direct correlation to motor speed and blower speed. On a belt drive system, you have the availability of over- driving the blower to compensate, if the motor is turning a lower RPM.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Jay, I found some info on Kohler engines in general
maybe that will help

here's for 28hp Command

http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecata ... commandpro

What's interesting to me, is the torque curve
HP continues to go w/RPM, but torque peaks, then goes down
with increased RPM.

...L.T.A.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

So Les or duane do you know what the the 30hp kohler is suppose to run at with the hoses attached? Just curious. Right now I got it set at 3600 with no load and about 3350 with a load on.

JAY,

I've been looking on the web for the torque curve of your 30 HP engine, and I'm going to post a link that I did find. See if this is your engine.
I'm not at the shop until Monday morning, so I will pull my books out then and look at the torque curve for you.

http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecata ... nID=165260

Les

 

[Larry Cobb]

Jay;

You're OK with a 250RPM drop.

It varies according to the load on the engine. The #47 is a substantial load to the engine.

Torque will always peak well before peak horsepower.

It peaks at 2400 on the 28HP Les posted.

Larry Cobb

 

[Duane Oxley]

It's more important if you're using a motor that's "closely matched", than one that's got some power to spare.

For instance, running a Roots 45 with a Vanguard 18, or even a 16... The faster the blower turns and the more load it's under, the more force ("torque") is required, and a "closely matched" motor doesn't have as much reserve to "call upon", so to speak.

Personally, I've never built a 45 blower- based system with smaller than a 25 Kohler or a 23 Vanguard as a production model. But I've seen systems built with 18 , and even 16 / 45, like I said.

A 25 / 45, continuing with this example, has more than enough power to run at faster RPM... It can be done with a 20 HP, or a 22 HP Kohler (I only use Kohler...), but it runs smoother with more horsepower (torque) available.

Following the same logic, I build a 36- based system with both 18 and 20 HP. The 20 HP is called the "Unleashed" (and includes a large heater...), and costs more. And you can definitely tell a difference between the two, in terms of smoothness of operation.... The Unleashed runs smoother under load and at a higher RPM, but the 18 HP motor does very well in the same configuration.

When I build a #33 blower- based system, I use an 18. And it seriously "Hums" with that load... at 3,500, if I set it at that maximum...

Torque is more important to examine closely, when the components are closely- matched. When the motor has power to spare, it becomes less of a critical factor...

In a heat exchange context... (A bit off- topic, but I thought I'd mention it here...)

A closely- matched system will strain the motor more and cause it to run hotter as a result, which can be a plus in a heat exchange system.

I still prefer not to strain the motor, turn the blower at 3,200 and have the system, "Hum". And to do that on an exchanger, AND have good longevity of motor life, once again, having a motor that has more CFM (i.e. more airflow due to larger cylinders, longer stroke, etc.) is the way to go, in my opinion, vs. having one that strains more to generate higher exhaust temp's...

 

[hogjowl]

Duane:

I love your chemicals. As you can tell, since I buy many of your products. I like you as a person (not in a danny way), and I truly want you to succeed in this business this time. I wish you luck.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be two things:

1)Stop talking and get to work, or you'll end up like the last two or three times.

2) Get a larger blower option. No matter what you say about the plumbing and design, limiting your blower options to a 36 is going to turn off a ton of cleaners.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Hey, Marty...

Thanks. I'm waiting on other people at the moment... Designing is done. Waiting on parts to come back. So, I have a bit more time than I will soon... So, I have time to talk...

I don't know how you got the impression I only build with 36's...

Predator Unleashed II's had and will have #45's

Accelerator 2545's had and will have #45's

Dominators had and will have #47's

Nemesis II's will have #45's

Nemesis III's will have 47's

... and the upcoming 4cyl system will have (2) #45's...

 

[hogjowl]

Oh, sorry. I must have dozed off during that part of the thread. :?

 

[Jay D]

That is my motor, Les. Again thanks guys. :roll: