CFM test for Atlanta

[Desk Jockey]

It was the fuel burner. Its was just smoking hot and powerful vacuum. Pretty impressive but then it was a burner unit.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I am seeing a trend with larger engines...larger blowers
With glides. Rotaries and zipper as no hindrance with labor...
I am predicting it will continue....
I continue to ask the question why manufacturers don't spend the extra few hundred for larger blowers and engines....
A 4.5 blower increase to 4.7 is only about 100-200$ if that
From 25 hp to 30 hp about 300$ more
From 30 hp to 35 hp only about 300-400$
All these increases amount to 20-30% more airflow...less than 1000$

 

[dgardner]

Hey Cap'n, you should attend the upcoming Webinar and put your question to the designers!

 

[Captain America]

I should but I think I already know the answer???
My input is they are just trying to save 500$ or they haven't been out on a wand in
20 years and don't realize how important 2 hour vs 4 hour dry time is......
Or they are still stuck in the dinasoar days before glides where you can't pull a wand if it has too much vacuum.

 

[dgardner]

Afraid you might learn something that contradicts your long-held view of things?

Ask the question, and be receptive to learning something new. We all benefit if you do!

 

[Captain America]

I am looking for answers...
But these are the only answers I come up with from 2-3 suppliers and 2-3 manufacturers.
These are the exact answers I got from manufacturers.
1. Can't get anymore airflow from a 4.5 blower than a 25 hp engine....
2. 25 hp and 4.5 blower is all you need.
3. You can only get so much CFm through the 2 inch hose anyway
Same answers I get on heat.....
Suppliers tell me that manufacturers do it to cut expense.....

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Get out more.

Their info is flat out wrong.

 

[Captain America]

I do agree that not all manufacturers are cheapo......
Judson and steam action. Emphasize the high heat. High. CFm. Truck mounts.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

In the 21st Century fossil fired TMs are...fossils.

 

[Larry Cobb]

I am seeing a trend with larger engines...larger blowers
I continue to ask the question why manufacturers don't spend the extra few hundred for larger blowers and engines....
A 4.5 blower increase to 4.7 is only about 100-200$ if that
From 25 hp to 30 hp about 300$ more
From 30 hp to 35 hp only about 300-400$
All these increases amount to 20-30% more airflow...less than 1000$

I agree with the larger 34 HP engines . . .
but we like to run the Sutorbuilt 4MR (45) blowers at a higher lift level,
than is possible with the #47 blowers.
That is the way that you pull more CFM thru the wand on the carpet.

 

[Captain America]

At least Cobb agrees with the larger engine question!!!
I believe the statement that 2" hoses can only have 400-500 CFm is also bogus!!!
I saw a video with a 2 " hose pulling 650 CFm a while back.....

 

[dgardner]

Cap'n, I hope you realize that the vast majority of cfm measurements out there are inaccurate, and some completely bogus.

Almost all of the instruments out there actually measure velocity, not cfm. To calculate cfm you have to tell the meter what the duct/hose area is. By entering various different area values I can make the meter read just about any cfm I want.

 

[Captain America]

These are the specs for blowers:
33 - 200 CFm
36- 330. CFm
45 - 400 CFm
47 - 500. CFm
56 - 580. CFm
These are roots blower but the same for tut hill.
Major vac difference with every blower increase.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Each blower has a near fixed VOLUME of air moved each revolution, it's cfr.

Multiply that by rpm to yield CFM.

 

[Captain America]

Agree with the rpm that's why you have to have enough engine power....
Here are the specs and price:
20 hp....33 torque...1400$
25 hp....41. Torque...1600$
32 hp....54. Torque....2200$
40 hp....61 torque.....2500$
This is kholer engines...suburu is a little less expensive

 

[Larry Cobb]

Capt.;
There are several different flowmeters that actually read CFM.
We have one instrumentation type with sapphire bearings, but it is too complex for everyday readings.
This is the flowmeter & digital vac gauge we used when we tested the Bentley against the 1st DevPro 14" non-swivel.
On that test @ 100ft. we recorded 260 CFM for the Bentley and 230 CFM for the DevPro.
A year earlier, we recorded ~200 CFM for a 14" x 2" CMP low-profile wand on similar carpet.
So that was 15% more CFM for the DevPro and 30% more CFM for the Bentley (with the same 16" of lift at the TM w/#47 blower)

http://www.cobbcarpet.com//zen/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=63&

 

[Cleanworks]

I should but I think I already know the answer???
My input is they are just trying to save 500$ or they haven't been out on a wand in
20 years and don't realize how important 2 hour vs 4 hour dry time is......
Or they are still stuck in the dinasoar days before glides where you can't pull a wand if it has too much vacuum.

I think you have it a little backwards. The manufacturers aren't trying to save a few bucks, cheaping out on the machines. It's the cheap ass carpet cleaners always wanting something for nothing. Look at prochem's line up. They have the little blazer for the cheap ass guys who don't want to spend money on equipment and they have the everest for those who want the best as well as several intermediate machines. Need even more power, go buy an aerotech. More power and heat than you'll ever need but it comes at a price. They balance their machines and motors to give you options. There are lots of machines that will meet your needs but you have pony up the bucks.

 

[Captain America]

View attachment 14242 Capt.;
There are several different flowmeters that actually read CFM.
We have one instrumentation type with sapphire bearings, but it is too complex for everyday readings.
This is the flowmeter & digital vac gauge we used when we tested the Bentley against the 1st DevPro 14" non-swivel.
On that test @ 100ft. we recorded 260 CFM for the Bentley and 230 CFM for the DevPro.
A year earlier, we recorded ~200 CFM for a 14" x 2" CMP low-profile wand on similar carpet.
So that was 15% more CFM for the DevPro and 30% more CFM for the Bentley (with the same 16" of lift at the TM w/#47 blower)

http://www.cobbcarpet.com//zen/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=63&

So what is the CFm without the wand...just hooked up to the 2" hose

 

[Captain America]

one supplier told me a 4.7 blower was the same or less price than a 4.5.......
The point I am making is a 4.7 blower with a 35 -40 hp engine only costs about 500$ more than the 4.5 truck mount
Also fuel heater may be cheaper to make than these heat exchangers.
Only point I am making is that these huge truck mounts are over engineered and overpriced.
Should be able to get any 30-35hp 4.5 blower machine for under 12,ooo$
And a 35-40 hp 4.7 blower machine for under 14,000$

 

[Cleanworks]

one supplier told me a 4.7 blower was the same or less price than a 4.5.......
The point I am making is a 4.7 blower with a 35 -40 hp engine only costs about 500$ more than the 4.5 truck mount
Also fuel heater may be cheaper to make than these heat exchangers.
Only point I am making is that these huge truck mounts are over engineered and overpriced.
Should be able to get any 30-35hp 4.5 blower machine for under 12,ooo$
And a 35-40 hp 4.7 blower machine for under 14,000$

So you don't think the manufacturers should make a profit? Do you clean carpets at cost?

 

[Captain America]

No manufactures do need to make a profit.....
What they make is ok for the cost just over manufactured ....
Can be made easier and cheaper....
I do believe however for the parts on the direct drive truck mounts are an overcharge.......
25-30k $$..... Is too much for a truck mount without an engine.....

 

[Cleanworks]

Are you serious? So you think its cheaper to put an engine on a unit than to install a shaft drive. Have you ever seen what's involved. You have the price of the shaft, the clutches, the throttle controls, all the specialized mounts, never mind the skilled labor to install it properly, cutting the holes in the vans fire wall, etc. Maybe you should watch the up coming webinar, you might get a little insight into what it costs.

 

[Captain America]

Ok so what's the price without install....still 20-25 k$
Ron be serious ....these parts can't be over 6-7 k at the most....that's a 300% markup....without install...
I don't even know if they have heat exchangers they heat off the radiator somehow.....
Talked to a guy in Dallas said he would install for about 2-3000$....
They should knock 5000$ off the pto' s and more cleaners would buy them

 

[Cleanworks]

both you and the guy in Dallas don't know wtf you are talking about. (they heat off the radiators somehow) they have 1-3 heat exchangers that use the engine coolant to heat up the cleaning solution and some also have a blower exhaust after heater to boost temps up 235 degrees f. They are incredibly complicated to install and usually installed by the dealer. Some guy in Dallas installing pto's for 2-3000 bucks is either an idiot or a scam artist.

 

[Captain America]

The parts on the direct drive is still no more than 7500$
That's overcharging is all I'm saying......
A brand new van with a v8 is 25 k
Carpet cleaners make 30% profit
And the direct drive man. Make 300%
Just stating the facts....

 

[Cleanworks]

You wouldn't know a fact if it jumped up and bit you in the ass. I am not a manufacturer but have considered building my own unit and for just a basic unit, here some prices to consider. 27hp Kohler engine 2200.00. Roots 47 blower 2200.00. Cat 3cp pump with unloader and clutch 1000.00. Heat exchanger with diverter valve 1500.00. So we are already at almost 7000.00 in major components. We still need a frame, waste tank, hoses and fittings, silencer, thermostat, gauges, switches, never mind the labor to put it all together. Add in the design cost and the overhead of running a manufacturing business. Even if I can get the prices down buying in bulk, I have to cover those costs in advance and store everything until I am ready to build. Let's say it cost me 10,000 to build and I charge you 16,000 for the machine and 2,000.00 to install it. Oh I forgot, now you want vacuum hoses and high pressure lines and a wand and a fresh water hose. You want the van floor rhino lined and insulated. You see where I am going with this? Whether it's a slide in or a direct drive, I don't see anyone making 300% profit. You live in America the free. Free for anyone to make it cheaper. Yet the cheaper truckmounts have a reputation for poor quality or lack of options. If someone could make the same machine cheaper and only make 250% or 200% or even a measly 100% profit, They would.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I believe Cap'n is sincere, I've seen many others with similar convictions come and go over my 45 years in the industry.

I was one of them...ouch.

 

[Captain America]

not talking about all tuckmounts just the direct drive....
Do the math on the price on the parts and see if I am right......
not trying to knock any manufacturers....just saying specifically the price on the direct drive parts is a high markup.
slidein truckmounts probaly make about 50-100% markup...thats about right
direct drive parts are about 200-300% markup
just stating the facts.........

 

[Lee Stockwell]

You keep repeating "just stating the facts"...when you obviously don't know them.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Ask Prochem about all the "easy money" in making van powered units.