Clear Water Rinse Guys

[timnelson]

How is it possible to rinse the shampoo out of your hair with plain water, but you can't do the same with carpet?

 

[Greenie]

Guys.....Did I just read TWO Vortex high heat, high flow, soft water users say you didn't notice much better drying?

Have you got any idea how much shit i'm gonna give you at the next fest?

It's a Vortex for cryin' out loud. Maybe Mike will just can you and do yourself a favor.

 

[Chris A]

carpet fiber is totally different than hair, Jeezus, how many times do we have to hear the stupid cliche?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

How is it possible to rinse the shampoo out of your hair with plain water, but you can't do the same with carpet?

Hair Shampoo is specifically designed to rinse with plain water. Albeit, copious amounts- much more relative to even CC detergent products. If all CC detergent presprays were designed to rinse with minimal plain water, they would rinse well with plain water. They would not work on carpet soiling, but yes they would rinse with water.

If any one knows just how easily silicates are to remove from carpet fibers with plain water, I would like that person to try and explain their position, or debate this question. Too many times I see people using incorrect analogies to support plain water or soft water rinsing.

 

[Greenie]

Actually I was totally surprised a smart guy like Tim made that statement.

 

[bob vawter]

Greenie lerrnt that draw from ME...ya know?

 

[timnelson]

Thanks for the compliment, Greenie.

But really, shouldn't carpet cleaning chemicals rinse rather readily (alliteration ), assuming they are not left to dry before being extracted? Aren't we talking pH modification more than "rinsing?" This would certainly apply to the alkaline silicates.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Aren't we talking pH modification more than "rinsing?" This would certainly apply to the alkaline silicates.

No.

To remove a residue you must remove it, not simply react it with something that makes it soluble. Cleaning is a process of making unwanted materials soluble, followed by extraction. Whether it is extracts with dry air, with agitation and vacuuming (insoluble un-bonded particulates), or subsequent chemical reaction/emulsification to solublize for water extraction.

Presprays often contain ancillary cleaning agents which are not readily removed by plain water. Hence, extraction in-tank cleaners or rinses are used to assist.

While you can't say absolutely that more than water is needed, more than water often does a whole lot better with the majority of prespray formulations on the market. And sometimes water is all you "need", but the problem is it is at a volume which is hard on the carpet construction or detrimental to acceptable dry times.

The lesson; use proper chemistry to remove residues in a manner that minimizes the potential drawbacks of using water alone IF the prespray formulation is designed as such.

 

[Duane Oxley]

... starve your pump intake 10% (needle valve is best, but even a ball valve will work) then T off the intake and run a small line over to your Dwyer meter....viola' your pump will pull that lost 10% from your Dwyer, you meter from there...

Yes, that's a way to do it (there is a simpler way), but you have to qualify it with how the system bypasses.

If it bypasses back into the pump, no worries.

If it bypasses into a water tank which isn't designed to be a mix tank (and it isn't, if you're setting it up as pictured, by definition...), then the tank will affect chemical mix consistency when the system is in bypass. (In other words, when the wand's not keyed.)

What happens is that the tank, which is supposed to be fresh water only, isn't, as soon as the bypass is activated... each time the wand trigger is released, which adds up.

So, make sure that the tank isn't part of the bypass loop, if you're going to do it that way.

 

[timnelson]

Lots of good info.

 

[Ron Werner]

I keep forgetting to turn the meter on!
I've cleaned on the same job with and without rinse.
I do notice a better rinsing when I've got the rinse turned on, its not really noticable, but its there if you are watching.

Clear Water Rinse is just code for me that the cleaner is cutting corners and two cheap to buy the rinse he KNOWS he should be using. I was told years ago at a class that water by itself makes a poor rinse.

If your meter isn't working, just throw it in your Freshwater tank. I cleaned like that for years.

.If it bypasses back into the pump, no worries.

If it bypasses into a water tank which isn't designed to be a mix tank (and it isn't, if you're setting it up as pictured, by definition...), then the tank will affect chemical mix consistency when the system is in bypass. (In other words, when the wand's not keyed.)

What happens is that the tank, which is supposed to be fresh water only, isn't, as soon as the bypass is activated... each time the wand trigger is released, which adds up.

I was concerned about the bypass going back into the tank, but Les told its minimal, and he was right.

The big challenge about your bypass going back into the pump is that you stand a chance of burning out your pump. When you lay your wand down, that small amount of water keeps going through the pump and heating up. It killed my seals once, so I bypassed back to the FW tank. Since at that time I premixed my FW tank, it didn't make any difference.

The nice thing about the O2 rinse, it doesn't affect the HF spray, and can be used with both restaurant cleaning and residential.

 

[Duane Oxley]

The big challenge about your bypass going back into the pump is that you stand a chance of burning out your pump. When you lay your wand down, that small amount of water keeps going through the pump and heating up.

True. That's why a system that's designed that way should have a (mechanical) thermostat on that bypass loop. It allows water to leave the system when the temperature reaches the preset (typically 140 degrees or thereabout). When that happens, cool water comes in to replace it and the thermo shuts.

The thing about bypass loops is that the larger the reservoir, the longer they can be in bypass without overheating, as, I'm sure, Les pointed out.

But bypass loops without external reservoirs are not all the same, either. For instance, length affects the total volume. So does diameter (like vacuum hose, which we are all familiar with).

Most bypass hoses are 3/8" ID. Larger is better, though, because the larger the hose, the longer it takes the bypassed fluid to make it through it. That provides a couple of benefits. 1.) Takes longer to accumulate heat from friction of moving in the circle. 2.) Takes longer, so it has more time to lose heat through the hose as well.... 8)

 

[Duane Oxley]

I was told years ago at a class that water by itself makes a poor rinse.

It's inconsistent. Water hardness is a factor, and it varies from one area to another. Surface tension is a factor as well. The more it has, the less it can penetrate and rinse well.

A well- designed rinse is designed to not have such problems, among other things.

 

[Art Kelley]

It all depends on how hard the water is that you use, the concentration of the prespray you put down, and how much water you rinse with. The water here in my area of Metro Detroit requires no additional softening and rinses a dilute prespray very well. I mix Grease Eraser into a Hydro-Force at 1/3 the manufacturers recommended strength i.e. 6 ozs per 5 qt container applied broadly at about 1 to 8 ratio. It's pretty dilute. Then I apply a stronger mixture of traffic lane cleaner with 2 trigger sprayers to the indivual spots and heavy lanes. Very little actual chemical is applied to the rooms and is flushed with many gallons of water using a hi-flow glided wand. If half the HF jug is used on a job we're talking 4 or 5 oz of concentrate flushed by 50 or 60 gallons of water. And indeed more water is used on those areas where more detergent was applied. It works. I have no resoiling problems and the customers are thrilled. And yes my chem draw works, I fill the make-up tank every day. Sometimes I'll put 1 3 oz scoop of emulsfier into the 5 gal tank, but not all the time, as it doesn't clean better.

 

[Rex Tyus]

I have a hydroforce water softener and scrub 175 on most with ricky g tan and red,blue,or green on commercial. Judson on wool and 1-3 year old carpets. 195 at the wand and what ever green bean jets are for my ti wand. I can guarantee a ban will not out clean me. I almost forgot the cotton with green strips on olefin berber has been working very well. I would still like to try your stuff side by side, I am not that much of a redneck to learn something new.

You are scrubbing well so my bane warning does not apply to you. That being said with that much agitation I prefer an acidic rinse or an O2 type of rinse. You will not notice a significant difference in "clean", however the proper rinse will give it a luminous appearance plain water cannot match.

I will PM you a couple of my favorite combos. I really don't want to get into an aurgument over "I tried this and it was shit or you should use this instead...."

 

[Greenie]

You only put ONE 3 oz. scoop in the jug? At that concentration, it's softening the water at best, doesn't surprise me it's not cleaning any better. I assume this is all part of a "minimalist" approach, of less is more, and I respect that.

On Duane's comments, who in their right mind would make a bypass loop with no mix tank? That is just nuts. I installed a 9 gal box on my old unit. And yes the emulsifier would concentrate if i jsut lit it run for 20 mins. while chatting with Mrs. Piffelton, but I just made a point not to do that....actually it took more like 30 mins. to notice a difference in concnetration while actually cleaning....but when you extract 95% of what you put down, there really isn't much left over 100 sq. ft.

 

[Farenheit251]

I have a DuaneO machine and I believe the by bypass goes to the dump. It is not an hx so the bypass doesnt kick in much but it is there for protecting the pump.

 

[Duane Oxley]

On Duane's comments, who in their right mind would make a bypass loop with no mix tank? That is just nuts.

Umm... Greenie,

Virtually every system that's not a heat exchanger is made that way, except for one that I don't want to name because it would be taken as a personal thing by people who over react.

And take a look at a pressure washer, next time you're near one. There are a lot more of them than there are truck mounts. And they've been around longer than truck mounts. And yet, you'd be hard pressed to find one with a bypass going to a water tank.

You're relatively new to truck mounts, if I remember correctly. How many have you actually owned and operated? The systems you've seen over the last few years, other than one manufacturer, have been primarily heat exchange systems... 80% at least, because the market is 80% exchanger currently. And they commonly bypass back into the tank, for heat- gain purposes... not for pump protection.

 

[Duane Oxley]

And yes the emulsifier would concentrate if i jsut lit it run for 20 mins. while chatting with...

So, at 10 minutes, it was just "kinda concentrated"... and at 5 minutes, it was "getting there"...?

Hmmmm...

"...but when you extract 95% of what you put down, there really isn't much left..."

Okay. So, put "kinda concentrated" solution on the carpet and extract it and tell me that it isn't noticeable. In theory, you could just rinse it out, but then, that "fresh water mix tank" sort of gets in the way of that. Doesn't it?

I mean, you need to purge the system first, then flush it. Damn, why not just get a "real", calibrated mix tank and be done with it?

 

[Out of Character - 0]

I mix Grease Eraser into a Hydro-Force at 1/3 the manufacturers recommended strength, applied broadly at about 1 to 8 ratio. Then I apply a stronger mixture of traffic lane cleaner with 2 trigger sprayers to the indivual spots and heavy lanes.


How many of you guys do this?

Art, why not 1 pump-up? I bet you look a little goofy doing the double shot in front of customers. What if it's a big traffic lane?

We use 7qt HF containers with a 3 way valve on it. A flip of the switch and your spraying at either 1:8 or 1:4. I think double strength is good enough for most situations. I wish someone (Hello Mytee) would make a unit that works as above but is easier to service and doesn't require assembly.

 

[steve frasier]

Guys.....Did I just read TWO Vortex high heat, high flow, soft water users say you didn't notice much better drying?

OK, I see your point

I actually did one today where I just used soft water in most of the house. Pile lifted some area and HWE it, other areas got a little watered down prespray with the pile lift

man did that soft water only rinsed area dry real fast

 

[glenboy]

friend of mine told me he could not find my number and he was in a bind so he called a local CC he told me they were using windex type spray bottles to apply the pre-spray i thought he was shittin me after reading above i see they may have :shock:

 

[hogjowl]

I have a secret rinse that I can't tell anybody about that I want to bring up so everybody will be impressed and want to buy it when I suddenly decide the requests for information regarding it would make it proffitable for me to sell it.

And then I hope to sell enough, fast enough, so I can make tons of money before all of you realize it's really no better than the rest of the sh$% sold around here.

PS But you all will think I am super smart for a little while.

 

[Art Kelley]

[quote="Art Kelley":3c3vlug7]I mix Grease Eraser into a Hydro-Force at 1/3 the manufacturers recommended strength, applied broadly at about 1 to 8 ratio. Then I apply a stronger mixture of traffic lane cleaner with 2 trigger sprayers to the indivual spots and heavy lanes.


How many of you guys do this?

Art, why not 1 pump-up? I bet you look a little goofy doing the double shot in front of customers. What if it's a big traffic lane?

We use 7qt HF containers with a 3 way valve on it. A flip of the switch and your spraying at either 1:8 or 1:4. I think double strength is good enough for most situations. I wish someone (Hello Mytee) would make a unit that works as above but is easier to service and doesn't require assembly.

[/quote:3c3vlug7]

The trigger sprayers add about one extra minute to the preconditioning; you're forgetting I've already applied 4 or 5 gallons of prespray to the whole house with the HF. As to what the customer is thinking, by the way she is checking out my ass I think she is remembering what she felt when she was getting her legs massaged in Cancun.

 

[B&BGaryC]

I rinse with only soft water.


I think I will ban Greenie for making me doubt myself.

Yeah, but don't you rinse with five 6gpm jets? You can overcome anything with 30 flow.

 

[SuperFly]

Definately agree what Duane said.. Breaking the Surface Tension of water..

The purpose of emulsifiers/acid rinses is to break the surface tension of water. Water molecules are relaxed so the water and detergent combination can slide under soils on a fiber without resistance from surface tension.

When you see a bead of water on a table top that is the force of surface tension.. Add your water molecule relaxing agent (emuls/acidrinse), and watch the bead level out breaking the surface tension..

Did I mention surface tension...lol.. No, Duane did first..

 

[Greenie]

Duane, I was referring specifically to HX machines, most aren't interested in a converted pressure washer, but i appreciate your lengthy off in left field post. Now where is my box? :roll:

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

In the Judson rule book of truckmount designs; rule number 8 is that you NEVER bypass back to the pump inlet.

I will explain why...During bypass, the pump will overheat quickly. Relying on a thermal relief valve to keep the pump from burning up, and having the valve there at all when not necessary is just one more thing to break.

The pump cannot prime itself. In other words, if there is air in the pump, it just returns it to the pump inlet. This can cause the pump to run in a semi-cavitating state.

By using a small float tank, this allows the pump to bypass a volume of water like 4 gallons. This tank constantly primes the system, because the bubbles just float to the surface of the water.

By having a float tank, you are able to lay the wand down for a very long time without any heating issues. It allows the pump to pump cold water and the regulator to operate with cold water. This extends the life of the pump and the regulator.




I am now going to address the issue of chemical injection design. There is only one way to have a chemical injection system on a truckmount. This system has been on the Judson TNT since 1973 and is the most proven, trouble-free system on the market.


The TNT chemical injection system is exactly as Greenie described. It slightly starves the pump for water and the pump draws the chemical. Remember; this system is the most proven, trouble-free chemical system in the world. That's why this is the only way to do it. I absolutely see no reason to try to reinvent the wheel here.

I would now like to address the issue of water rinse versus rinsing agent. Water is different all over the U.S. Some water is heavy in metals, some water is heavy in minerals. Some water is harder than others. For example, have you ever gone to the beach where the water is hard and taken a shower? It seems like you can never get rinsed off!

This is why it is better to use a water conditioning agent to rinse with. Water softeners break down the surface tension. Heat also breaks down the surface tension. This makes the water wet faster. Seeing the water is coming out of the jet and in a split second is being vacuumed up, it is very important that the surface tension is broken down as much as possible.

Surface tension is not the only factor in a rinsing agent. Do you remember when I mentioned about taking a shower in hard water; how it is hard to rinse off? Another reason that it is this way is minerals in the water. The Judson soap-free O2 rinsing agent, is heavily kelated. This binds the minerals in the water and allows you to rinse the carpet more effectively.

The Judson O2 rinse has some other advantages. It brightens the carpet as it drys; it deals with wicking issues as it dries; it has a drying agent that accelerates the drying of the carpet expecially if you use an air mover.


It also has an additave called sodium borate that has high disinfectant properties. As a result, it assists in deodorization of the carpet, versus just masking odors with fragrance.


You should use the Judson soap-free O2 neutral rinse no matter what pre-srpay you use.

les

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

How is it possible to rinse the shampoo out of your hair with plain water, but you can't do the same with carpet?

The reason that you can rinse your hair with plain water is due to the large volume of water you use when taking a shower.
To use a comparable volume of water to rinse carpet, you would have to basically flood the carpet.

 

[Bill Soukoreff]

Les, what about a pumptec or other electric pump?