Dual wanding.

[Larry Cobb]

Sutorbilt 4MR & 5MR is a new design with the gearbox separated from the rotor housing.

It allows more vacuum in the rotor housing and less heat in the gearbox.

Larry

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The gearbox has always been separated, the MX has improved seal design.

 

[JS41035]

Geez dad.


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[Becker]

Whats a blower?

 

[gtech12v]

Mr. Larry i have use a 36,45,47,56 and 59 blower units and for single wand the 47 is my favorite for dual wand the 59 with a 49hp nissan engine with a smaller waste tank and auto pump out is the best on a sliding ; now if you know that every item in the vac air path from wand to silencer how come you build the most restricted Truckmount I have ever seen can you answer this with honesty please

 

[Larry Cobb]

GTech;

I think you are confusing size with restrictions.

Our TM's have extremely low total airflow restriction.

Mainly due to all-stainless silencers . . .

recovery tanks without typical baffles . . .

higher flow vac filters with more open area . . .

and 2" tube, cast head floor wands.

Larry

 

[glenboy]

Who sells stainless mufflers

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[AshleyMckendree]

Who sells stainless mufflers

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Most auto parts stores. Typically is 2.5" or 3" connections


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[Ron Werner]

Lee;

They #45 & #47 use the same 4" diameter gears with identical power ratings.

The 7" rotor of the #47 is 40% longer than the 5" rotor of the #45.

That is 40% more CFM . . . and you still think they can operate at the SAME LIFT LEVELS.

Your college profs would laughing at that type of "critical thinking"

Larry

I might be a little slow when it comes to critical thinking, but I can read a chart.

http://www.pdblowers.com/admin/uploads/45_urai_vacuum_performance_curve.pdf
http://www.pdblowers.com/admin/uploads/47_urai_vacuum_performance_curve.pdf

Might have the same gears but common sense tells me that because the rotors are 2" longer on the 47 its going to require more power and will move more air at an equal rpm.
IF wands are using glides, how much CFM is actually needed to dual wand, assuming the blower maintains 14-15"Hg.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Ron;

Our measurements show ~200 CFM for a 14" TM wand . . .

IF you can maintain 14" hg actually at the wand.

Larry

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Given the title of this thread, I bet Larry would agree that a dual 45 system would be a great dual wand system.

 

[Mikey P]

Dual wanded today, 6 jobs. I feel my machine is borderline capable. Every job today was 100' per.

The more often a dual wand the more I love the idea of wanting to make it standard operation.

Clients love the speed of being in and out.

Besides and aerotech, what other machines do you feel are suitable for daily dual wanding?

The guy who wands with me has it down and we work well together.

Besides the cleaning speed, I like being able to wrap up with the client while the other finished packing up the van.

Anyone have or know someone who runs 2 med level slide ins out of a single box truck?

I thought you were coming down to do a ride along?



You go out with my guys and you'll be sending a check to Utah the next day.

 

[gtech12v]

Check the restriction on the blower by using a smaller plug on the blower inlet and how many 90 elbows if that is not restricting the vacuum...... your units are nice really like the waste and fresh water combo the space saving is a plus and the Shock plate is great

 

[JS41035]

Given the title of this thread, I bet Larry would agree that a dual 45 system would be a great dual wand system.

I like where your going with this.


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[Spurlington]

Are we really losing much airflow going through 90's vs straight to tank from the blower .. I'm thinking even though the straight shot would create more air flow, the relief valve just opens up a bit more than it would if it were to support a system with a few 90's .. and at the end of it all will create the same vac pressure at the waste tanks entry port ...

 

[Larry Cobb]

Paul;

The plumbing shown is 2.375" ID.

Total restriction of an elbow is = to about 4ft. of 2.375" ID tubing.

The total is equal to ~15 ft of 2" of straight rough interior hose.

Insignificant when you consider the other restrictions.

Justin; Rather than dual #45 blowers, I would use a #5MR blower for greater reliability and higher lift of "MR series".

Larry

 

[JS41035]

We have a dual blower 45 setup. It's not bad dual wanding. Good vacuum when both blowers are used for single wanding. The pro 2000 slows the 45s down a little. But still fine for dual wanding. Each wand has it's own 45 and waste tank. Honestly the heat does not keep up when dual wanding wide open


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[Shawn Forsythe]

This setup would definitely tend to favor a low CFM, higher lift system. Now I understand Larry's chart.

 

[Bob Savage]

We have a dual blower 45 setup. It's not bad dual wanding. Good vacuum when both blowers are used for single wanding. The pro 2000 slows the 45s down a little. But still fine for dual wanding. Each wand has it's own 45 and waste tank. Honestly the heat does not keep up when dual wanding wide open


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There is a major drawback in a TM that uses 2 separate blowers - when running a single wand, blowers in parallel, you will have twice the airflow that you will have when using those 2 blowers separately, as in using 2 wands.

To me, that is a big compromise.

I have been able to utilize a single #45 blower and run 2 wands at the same time, with little compromise, and virtually the same vac power with 1 or 2 wands.

 

[Spurlington]

Paul;

The plumbing shown is 2.375" ID.

Total restriction of an elbow is = to about 4ft. of 2.375" ID tubing.

The total is equal to ~15 ft of 2" of straight rough interior hose.



Larry

Even if you have more restrictions with elbows and ID narrowing .. that would mean relief valve would open less creating same airflow draw at waste tank entry port as it would with a straight shot to the waste tank entry .. that's what I'm thinking ..

is that the case .. straight shot requires opening relief more vs elbowed and narrowing requiring less relief opening to achieve the same draw at the entry port

 

[Spurlington]

There is a major drawback in a TM that uses 2 separate blowers - when running a single wand, blowers in parallel, you will have twice the airflow that you will have when using those 2 blowers separately, as in using 2 wands.

Why not use 2 - 50 gallon waste tanks to go with 2 blowers .. they'd be equivalent space to a 100 gallon .. add a couple pump outs .. that would maximize vac .. be good for the 4 to the door scenario .. hose from each tank instead of 2 ports on 1

 

[Bob Savage]

Why not use 2 - 50 gallon waste tanks to go with 2 blowers .. they'd be equivalent space to a 100 gallon .. add a couple pump outs .. that would maximize vac .. be good for the 4 to the door scenario .. hose from each tank instead of 2 ports on 1

Not necessary Paul, and, that would cost a lot more to set up without any gain in production.

You would still have the problem of cutting the airflow in half when you run dual wands, as opposed to running a single wand, whether you are using one waste tank or two waste tanks and dual blowers.

 

[Spurlington]

I like the 1 blower to 1 tank idea .. this way were not worrying if the other wand is flat on the carpet for full performance .. seems like there's issues when you have 2 wands sharing a tank whether you have 1 or 2 blowers

 

[Bob Savage]

I like the 1 blower to 1 tank idea .. this way were not worrying if the other wand is flat on the carpet for full performance .. seems like there's issues when you have 2 wands sharing a tank whether you have 1 or 2 blowers

As long as you run at least two separate 2" hoses from the blower intake to the waste tank, and two separate 2" vac hoses from the recovery tank to the machine panel, with an over-sized silencer on the discharge side of the blower (I use a 4" intake and 4" exhaust port Stoddard silencer on my setup), you will have NO vacuum issues running two wands.

Neither tech will be able to tell if the other tech's wand is on the carpet, or no.

 

[Joshua Klopfenstein]

Bob,

Do you have a picture of silencer?
Are you saying 4" blower inlet (blower to waste tank) and 4" blower outlet (blower to silencer)?
Are you over spinning the blower?

Thanks.

 

[Bob Savage]

Bob,

Do you have a picture of silencer?
Are you saying 4" blower inlet (blower to waste tank) and 4" blower outlet (blower to silencer)?
Are you over spinning the blower?

Thanks.

No pic, but here's the info on the silencer:

Stoddard Silencer
Graylake, Ill.
1-800-522-2645
Stoddard Model #D32-4
#73A524

I'm not saying you have to use this size/model silencer, it's just what I chose to make sure that I was not compromising any back-pressure on the blower. For all I know, a 3" intake and exhaust would also work.

The #45 blower has a 2.5" intake and 2.5 exhaust port. Converting the exhaust port to 4" into the 4" silencer, makes sure there is little to no restriction in exhaust airflow. Exhaust airflow is one of the parts of a vacuum system that is often compromised. Compromising that will reduce the overall vacuum of a PD blower. An HX in a blower exhaust compromises your vacuum somewhat. After all, aren't we wanting the maximum vacuum our blower's can produce, without having to oversize components to make up for restrictions?

Since I am using LP for heat, I do not need any HX heat.

On the intake side of the blower going to the waste tank (2.5" threads on blower intake), I have installed a 2.5" X 2" X 2" T, so I can run two separate 2" vac hoses into the waste tank, just as I am running two separate 2" vac hoses to the machine front panel, into 2 separate vac hoses, into two inline filters, to inside for cleaning.

I am over-spinning the blower (8" pulley on the motor, 7" pulley on the blower), so I can reduce running RPM's to 3000 to conserve fuel. I am also over-driving the Cat pump, so it has good flow at 3000 RPM for dual wands (total of #14 flow - 2" wand at #8 flow, 1.5" wand at #6 flow).

The 24 HP Honda, still has great torque and rarely bogs down at all under load!

 

[Larry Cobb]

This setup would definitely tend to favor a low CFM, higher lift system. Now I understand Larry's chart.

All four of the TM's for the Blower Performance Chart . . .

were produced by another manufacturer.

They were all direct-drive engine to blower.

Larry

 

[Ron Werner]

All four of the TM's for the Blower Performance Chart . . .

were produced by another manufacturer.

They were all direct-drive engine to blower.

Larry

RPM's are RPM's, does it make a difference if belt or direct drive?

 

[TConway]

I wanna ask something....
Okay on vwtm at 50' 2 runs of 2.5 each hose is at 280-295 cfm+- each
But when placing my hand over one hose the lift is minimal meaning the airflow goes more to unblocked hose. I understand this but here is 1st ?
When wands are placed on end of hose runs does that equal out or balance the airflow/vacuum?
Does the size of wand matter head width/ tube size?
Vac hose I notice on Savage's 45 DW he is using 1.5 whip hose and wands?
Also I got rid of spring vac relief and went to a free flow set up, if I give the vw more gas I can hit 18 hg I don't want it that high but would you suggest closing it and let the dual wands be the relief break?
I think when this is all done I will probably go with a split tank giving each blower its own vac chamber as I think it will increase my vacuum maybe.

 

[dgardner]

I wanna ask something....
Okay on vwtm at 50' 2 runs of 2.5 each hose is at 280-295 cfm+- each
But when placing my hand over one hose the lift is minimal meaning the airflow goes more to unblocked hose. I understand this but here is 1st ?
When wands are placed on end of hose runs does that equal out or balance the airflow/vacuum?
Does the size of wand matter head width/ tube size?
Vac hose I notice on Savage's 45 DW he is using 1.5 whip hose and wands?
Also I got rid of spring vac relief and went to a free flow set up, if I give the vw more gas I can hit 18 hg I don't want it that high but would you suggest closing it and let the dual wands be the relief break?
I think when this is all done I will probably go with a split tank giving each blower its own vac chamber as I think it will increase my vacuum maybe.

Tom, if you want to have the best setup for dual-wanding, you need to go back to a relief valve and ditch the free-flow system.
Free-flow by its nature optimizes for a certain setup, and is not the best for changing conditions (like your partner lifting his wand off the carpet).

Put the relief valve back, set for 16” (or whatever vac you want to run). Hook up both hoses and both wands, leave them open (off the carpet). Start the machine and run the RPM up until you get to 16”.

When you put both wands on the floor the vac relief will start to bypass air due to the additional restriction, like it should. When either of you lifts the wand, reducing the restriction, the relief will close to maintain 16” and the other person won’t notice any difference. This only works if you have enough CFM capacity in the first place to run both wands open, of course.