Glue letting loose on commercial carpet tiles

[Brian H]

We have a 3,000 sq foot job that we have been cleaning for years. After cleaning this time, the tiles have cupped up on the edges. This is everywhere on the job, high traffic areas as well as very low use areas.

We went back and lightly re-wet it, ran over it with a 100lb tile roller and used air movers to speed dry a small test area. When we left it looked fine, but the next day the cupped edges were back.

Any suggestions on what went wrong and more so, is there any ideas on how it can be corrected?

 

[Desk Jockey]

Brian it almost sounds as if vapor is moving through the substrate (concrete) and the only way for it to escape is through the separations in the tiles.

Could they have had a water loss and not told you about? Just called in for cleaning? Have you cecked the GPP, is it elevated?

Did you check with a moisture detector to see if after force drying there was still moisture present. If you find moisture, I'd run a couple of dehumififers and a several airmovers. The fact that it briefly pulled down with airmovers would make me think it's a moisture issure and not glue. ????

 

[Brian H]

Rich the tiles only started doing this after our most recent cleaning. We did not use a moisture detector when we speed dried the carpet.

The glue is still tacky and the tile will hold for a few minutes just dry rolling it with the tile roller. It just slowly pops back up on the edges. It is almost as if the carpet fibers themselves have shrunk and are causing the hard rubber back to cup.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I wouldn't think anything in it could shrink, it's all synthetic and rubber but anything is possible. If you really think that is the case you might try a heat gun on an individual tile and see if you can get it to relax. Just be careful not to scorch the carpet face fibers, fix one problem yet cause another. That's how it usually goes for me.

I'm still puzzled how it's been fine all the previous cleaning but this cleaning it reacts differently? I've not seen tiles react the way describe except in cases where the concrete had trapped moisture. In those cases the vapor escapes through areas of least resistance, the edges of the tile.

Was the HVAC running? Cold they have turned down the temperature to save money and the carpet not dried properly? ??

 

[Royal Man]

Some or the tile I have seen warn against using HWE and say it will void the warranty. So. I pad encap then to keep water from going between the edges.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Sure Dave but he said they have been cleaning that account for years and no problems.

 

[Ron Werner]

did you change your solution or cleaning pressure?

 

[Desk Jockey]

I had a crew Monday that cleaned a room at 1000 psi, they had been doing T& G Saturday and forgot to lower it back down.

We had to run a couple of airmovers over there to ensure it would dry. I'm just glad the lead tech recognized it was higher than normal. I'll have to ask him what tipped him off.

I bet it flushed that carpet out really well.

 

[Brian H]

The same solution, the same pressure.. even the same crew. It's the office of a industrial distribution company and there are areas of VERY heavy use tracking back and forth from their dirty, greasy warehouse and other areas that are never even walked on. It all seems to be uniformly popping.

We did the testing on Saturday morning and it looked fine when we left. We went back today and it's as if we hadn't done a thing.

High heat is interesting... I wonder if we should try a pressure steamer to heat up the tile/backing?

 

[Desk Jockey]

might help but you may need more heat than that. When they installed the tiles here in our office they were using a heat gun, they said the backing was so stiff on edges and doorways they had to heat it up so they could make it pliable.

 

[J Scott W]

I have an article from Lew Migliore (inspector and consultant for manufacturers) on the subject. He explains why this is usually a manufacturing issue even if the tiles have been flat for a long time. Sometimes issues with an improper adhesive. Sometimes the tile starts to curl due to moisture coming up from the slab (still a manufacturing issue). Cleaning with a rotary extractor can catch the slightly raised edges and cause them to curl further.

Difficult to get a permanent correction once a tile has curled. Getting the floor really dry and new adhesive are the best options.

Send me an email if you want a copy of the article scottw@bridgewatercorp.net.

 

[Mardie]

Some or the tile I have seen warn against using HWE and say it will void the warranty. So. I pad encap then to keep water from going between the edges.

Carpet manfacturers listed on the CRI web site say not to use rotary machines or wet cleaning meathods on carpet tile.
When problems like this show up it is usally somthing that has been set into motion over a long period of time.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Ummm don't they also recommend HWE as the preferred carpet cleaning method?

Oh I see, you're selective on which info from the CRI you chose to believe. Sure I get it!

 

[Mardie]

Ummm don't they also recommend HWE as the preferred carpet cleaning method?

Oh I see, you're selective on which info from the CRI you chose to believe. Sure I get it!

I only dish out the meat and potatos.What i posted is pertinent to this thread.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Alright sorry!

 

[Harry Myers]

It is not a rubber backing. It is poly vinyl chloride.PVC backing. It is applied with a thin of acrylic latex adhesive. Sounds like to much moisture and like wood its cupping. I think a solution would be to pick up a tile and see if its dried brittle. I would think if A SOLVENT was used that possibly could be another reason for curling. Just a suggestion. Good luck.

 

[Shane Deubell]

Only has happened 1x, it was a super cold night and the door was cracked open too much. The area affected was only couple hundred sqrs by the door.

That was the explanation i received anyway.

 

[Dirty Swirler]

Milken carpet squares recommend their low moisture system and interface carpet squares recommend hwe no bonnet or any rotary

hmm........easy for mfgs to always blame the dumb carpet cleaner

 

[Brian H]

This is going to be a tough one to explain to the customer...

 

[Desk Jockey]

Yea that's not going to be easy, the one thing you have going for you is that you've been cleaning it for years and no issue before.

Have you been back to see if there is any change?

Is there any value in you paying to have a certified carpet inspector come see what went on?
It would be a third party evaluation, not just your word.

 

[Royal Man]

Yea that's not going to be easy, the one thing you have going for you is that you've been cleaning it for years and no issue before.

Have you been back to see if there is any change?

Is there any value in you paying to have a certified carpet inspector come see what went on?
It would be a third party evaluation, not just your word.

If it comes down to it. Commercial carpet prorates out in 5 years and after that it has NO replacement value.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Come on Dave, really?

There is no way you walk using that statement, they would barbecue you first!

I understand the deprecation but it was fine before cleaning and now it's not. I think you're on the hook until it's figured out why it happened. If you can't get separation then right or wrong you'll be held responsible.

 

[Royal Man]

Come on Dave, really?

There is no way you walk using that statement, they would barbecue you first!

I understand the deprecation but it was fine before cleaning and now it's not. I think you're on the hook until it's figured out why it happened. If you can't get separation then right or wrong you'll be held responsible.

Just saying if worse comes to worse and lawsuits start flying and a remedy is to be found. They can't get new carpet for old. The carpet likely has NO replacement value. Unforeseen stuff happens! Is it the cleaning? Is it the carpet? Manufactured defect? Installation problem? Could be a lot of folks involved in a suit.

 

[Brian H]

If it comes down to it, we really don't want to ever go to court. Mostly bad things happen when you go that route.

We once had a customer sue us for not being able to remove urine stains from her skirted dining room chairs. The judge even at one point asked everyone in the courtroom, including our lawyer to leave so she could coach the customer!!

 

[Desk Jockey]

Well not sure how it works up there but down here I can't see a judge dismissing something like this. I'd bet the judgment would go for replacement....maybe some adjustment for age?

Anything can happen in court, there was this crazy dude who slashed his wife to pieces but got off scot free!

 

[Desk Jockey]

If it comes down to it, we really don't want to ever go to court. Mostly bad things happen when you go that route.

We once had a customer sue us for not being able to remove urine stains from her skirted dining room chairs. The judge even at one point asked everyone in the courtroom, including our lawyer to leave so she could coach the customer!!

I agree, I've been to small claims court before over pet stains on a sheep skin rug. I won but it was not worth the hassle. I should have just let it go with no charge but emotions got involved and I was angry when she wanted a refund on the work. I had written proof, on her ticket it clearly stated "We will do the best we can for the urine stain but there are no guarantees on removal. She was mad because it only lightened the area.

I explained my case to the judge, showed him a copy of the invoice and said we didn't put the spot in the rug, we just couldn't safely remove it. He asked me if in the interest of public relations would I waive the charges for the rug which I agreed to.

So while I didn't have to buy her a new rug, I also didn't get paid for the work we had put into it. I should have just given it to her Free. She just got me all riled up with her demands for her money back despite being told our limitations. B*tch!

 

[Royal Man]

Here it is simple. First they find the prorated replacement value in the case. So, they can then access damages. Putting an official value to the claim is their only responsibility. Typically Commercial carpet prorates off after five years. Resi 10 years. Case closed. They repeat this all day long. One case every 5 minutes. Then the claimant has to figure out how to get the cash from the debtor.

 

[Desk Jockey]

It must be the water, I think Jimmy is peeing in it and you drink down in Lincoln.

 

[Royal Man]

I sat through a whole day of it for a client that was getting sued by his landlord. Every case went almost the same. The proration chart rules!

 

[Desk Jockey]

Lets hope it works that way.