LET'S TALK PH

[Lyman]

For the last 3 years I have been using redline with a little sp in it. This prespray should be just under 10 and works great. Lately I have been using 2112 that is around 11 ph and the results are night and day. I have only been using the 11 ph on carpets that need it.(normal cleaning for me- 5-15 year old carpet that is well used) Is the ph barrier been over hyped of not going over 10 ph to strip stain warranty. After the last month, I have more letters coming in on how nice there carpet looks with there check then ever.

 

[hogjowl]

outstanding information ... -_____-

 

[ACE]

Keep in mind that pH 11 is 10 times more alkaline than PH 10. I do try to follow industry guidelines about cleaning stain resistant carpet. That said, no one cares how safe your chemicals are if you don’t get it clean. Sometimes you need a sledgehammer, most times you don’t

Will pH 10.1 strip stain resistance? – Probably not
Will pH 10.5 strip stain resistance? –Maybe
Will pH 11 strip stain resistance? -Probably, but who cares if that’s what it takes to get it clean.

Why not run some test on some scraps of 5th gen nylon?

 

[Jim Martin]

when you walk into a home and in the back of your mind..you know your going to have to kick up the PH to get it clean....

all the above is out the window...because it is already past that point........

 

[Lyman]

That is what I would like to know, is a 11 ph striping at 5 minutes of dwell time or instantly. I do one room at a time, under furniture first and the middle or traffic area last. My prespray sits for 5-10 minutes.

 

[Larry Cobb]

The pH recommendation of 10 from CRI came from the 1st stainresist products.

They would yellow if cleaned with a pH above 10.

BASF and others corrected the problem a year or so later,

but the CRI kept the pH recommendation.

When I asked a CRI technical rep at Connections,

he replied that they just kept it at that level.

I told him that urine removal spotters like percarbonate were effective,

but over their pH level of 10.

They did not seem to be interested in changing their recommendation.

IMO, the pH that the carpet is left at, is a better spec to follow.

Larry

P.S. Several years ago, I tested Monsanto Gold Label stainresist up to pH of 12 with no adverse effects.

 

[ruff]

Larry,
From my understanding the higher PH cancels or reduces the electrical charge that holds the stain resist particles attached to the dye sites.
If that is the case, when using a high PH pre-spray, more of the stain blockers will be removed from the sites in the rinsing process, thus making the carpet less stain resistant.

Jim, I would think that if one needs to use a higher Ph than the warranty requires, the client should be advised. And be the one to make that decision (with the cleaner's input and explanation.)
After all: It is their property, their warranty and their decision to make.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Larry,
From my understanding the higher PH cancels or reduces the electrical charge that holds the stain resist particles attached to the dye sites.
If that is the case, when using a high PH pre-spray, more of the stain blockers will be removed from the sites in the rinsing process, thus making the carpet less stain resistant.

I tested some carpet @ pH of 12 with no loss of stainresist properties.

Stainresist products are generally anionic in charge.

Only cationic chemicals would normally affect them.

Larry

 

[mcatt]

I typically clean bad jobs at a 10ph but do boost with citrus solv. How does that affect this equation?

 

[J Scott W]

I typically clean bad jobs at a 10ph but do boost with citrus solv. How does that affect this equation?

The addition of solvents would not affect the pH of the cleaning solution.

The recommnedation of 10.0 Ph did come from stain resist chemicals. I agree with Larry that the stain resist can now handle more pH. However, the recommendation of 10.0 pH or lower also comes from the AATCC (American Association of Textile Colorists and Chemists) the folks who make dyes. They say that pH over 10.0 will increase the rate of fading on many of the carpet dyes. The higher the pH and the longer the time it remains at that pH both effect the result. The AATCC is the reason the carpet manufacturers keep the in place for warranties.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Scott;

I have some Shaw "solution-dyed" commercial level loop multi-color carpet in our showroom.

When it was brand new we extracted it with water only for a demo.

The water from the portable extractor came out PURPLE.

Called an inspector to file a claim.

Found out that only 90% of the carpet is solution dyed (met legal definition).

The dark purple yarn was the remaining 10%.

Don't give me all the carpet mfgs. line about proper pH.

Larry

P.S. I WAS a former member of the AATCC (American Association of Textile Colorists and Chemists). Never saw the paper showing a modern dye fading at pH of 10.

 

[Goomer]

If you feel the condition of the carpet requires it to be nuked to get it clean...isn't the warranty most likely already out the window??

 

[ruff]

What you feel, got nothing to do with the warranty.

As if you use the wrong chemical and violate the warranty, both the client and the manufacturer may feel that you be the one to replace it.

The warranties are not realistic. They over promise and under deliver (that is if one doesn't actually bother to read the small letters. And who does?)

They'd love for you and or Larry to pick the tab.

So, Larry, I just wanted to see if I got it right:
If I feel like using one of your famed high ph products on a fifth generation carpet and void the warranty, you are picking the tab?
Right?

 

[dday]

Isn't 2112 a private label Powermax?

 

[Able 1]

I have NEVER seen a carpet warranty honored, even with THE WORST POS carpet the mill puts out(smart strand or poly). They just say that's not wear bla bla bla. They will do anything to pin it on you, but it won't happen.. Last guy said it was cause I was using a truck mount.. LOL He suggested only to have a porty guy clean it. KMA! I nuke em'!!!

Solution dyed nylon is another story it's the best since the first generation nylon I scale it back for it and it cleans up great and shows little wear.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Ofer;

We do have a powder prespray product for Stainresist with a pH under 10 . . .

http://www3.cobbcarpet.com/zen3/ind...h_in_description=1&keyword=Stainresist+Powder

I just question the arbitrary selection of 10 pH as the level that modern synthetic dyes start to be damaged.

The solution-dyed nylon carpet we bought had NO warranty for bleeding profusely at a pH of 7.5.

Where was the warranty on that DYE ?

I think a prespray pH of 10.5,
which is rinsed to yield a final pH of 8.5,
would NOT cause damage to a carpet properly dyed with modern synthetic dyes.

Larry

 

[sam miller]

when you walk into a home and in the back of your mind..you know your going to have to kick up the PH to get it clean....

all the above is out the window...because it is already past that point........

So true its all moot at that point!

 

[Mikey P]

Isn't 2112 a private label Powermax?

Is that true Larry?

 

[dday]

Isn't 2112 a private label Powermax?

Is that true Larry?

When Larry goes quiet on an active thread ...


I can't remember from whom I heard it, but I know someone mentioned a while back that 2112 was a private label Cobb Powermax.

 

[Lyman]

2112 is not relabeled powermax as far as I know.

 

[dday]

2112 is not relabeled powermax as far as I know.

I guess we'll just have to wait for Larry to have the last word ...

 

[dscprod123]

Gooday mates,

This is K Mark Kling from DSC Products.

We make 2112 for Cleaning Supply Network in Pensacola, Florida.

Tony Romeo and Brian Frank's orders keep our 3000 lb roll mixer busy several days a week.

If you have technical questions, I'm happy to accommodate

 

[Larry Cobb]

We manufacture ALL of our Dynachem products.

It keeps the pricing to cleaners affordable.

Larry

 

[Dolly Llama]

Gooday mates,

This is K Mark Kling from DSC Products.

We make 2112 for Cleaning Supply Network in Pensacola, Florida.

Tony Romeo and Brian Frank's orders keep our 3000 lb roll mixer busy several days a week.

If you have technical questions, I'm happy to accommodate

It is similar/same as Relief??
Relief is a great enzyme pre-spray


..L.T.A.

 

[Mikey P]

Hey Mark


Nice to see you finnaly on board!

 

[Goomer]

What you feel, got nothing to do with the warranty.

What I'm saying is, if someone feels the need to nuke a carpet, it usually an indication that the carpet has not been cleaned at frequent enough intervals to maintain the warranty in the first place. From all the warranties I have read, most require professional cleaning every 6-12 months to maintain the warranty, and require documentation to prove it was cleaned professionally, on schedule.. So the chances of running into a trashed carpet that needs to be nuked, where the owner also has a stack of dated receipts from professional cleaners, all within the cleaning frequency guidelines, are pretty slim to none.

 

[Zee]

What you feel, got nothing to do with the warranty.

What I'm saying is, if someone feels the need to nuke a carpet, it usually an indication that the carpet has not been cleaned at frequent enough intervals to maintain the warranty in the first place. From all the warranties I have read, most require professional cleaning every 6-12 months to maintain the warranty, and require documentation to prove it was cleaned professionally, on schedule.. So the chances of running into a trashed carpet that needs to be nuked, where the owner also has a stack of dated receipts from professional cleaners, all within the cleaning frequency guidelines, are pretty slim to none.

Exactly!

When a carpet needs the nuke, nuke it- that carpet has lost the warranty before your prespray hit the fabric.
Not one customer will accept the explanation like this: "your carpets won't clean up good enough because of the chemicals we need to use may void a warranty. But we can get it beautifully cleaned up if you allow us to use the stronger chemical. Do you want us to make your carpets clean or keep your warranty alive (which may already been voided by the misuse of said carpet)?"

They all pay -for us to clean the carpet as clean as possible!

 

[Lyman]

You guys are finally getting it. I don't consider 10.5 to 11 a nuke prespray. Just try some and you will be surprised on the results. I have used it on resteraunts, churches, daycares, carpets that warrant a super cleaning, nasty apartments, which is 80% of my cleaning.

Today---
church dining hall-2 years since last cleaning
apartment-12 year old nylon-5 years since last cleaning
house-12 year old olefin berber-I clean every 2 years
16 ozs of 2112 in 7 qt hydroforce clean all excellent- soft water rinse-cost $2.66 all day

 

[Torrey Express]

In chemistry, pH (Potential Hydrogen) is a measure of the acidity or basicity of an aqueous solution. Pure water is neutral, with a pH close to 7.0 at 25*°C (77*°F). Solutions with a pH less than 7 are said to be acidic and solutions with a pH greater than 7 are basic or alkaline. pH measurements are important in medicine, biology, chemistry, agriculture, forestry, food science, environmental science, oceanography, civil engineering and many other applications.

Here are a few pictures to help visualize the scale and where things we deal with fall into it.

Pure (de-ionized) water is neutral, and can be considered either a very weak acid or a very weak base, giving it a pH of 7 (at 25*°C (77*°F)), or 0.0000001 M H+.

The pH has no upper or lower limit and can be lower than 0 or higher than 14, although with water, it is limited by the acidity and basicity of water. For an aqueous solution to have a higher pH, a base must be dissolved in it, which binds away many of these rare hydrogen ions.

Most of the Earth's freshwater bodies surface are slightly acidic due to the abundance and absorption of carbon dioxide; in fact, for millennia in the past, most fresh water bodies have had a slightly acidic pH.

Side note I found interesting:

Runoff from mines or mine tailings can produce some of the most acidic pHs ever reported; with negative pHs measured and reported in the literature as low as pH ?3.6.

It is interesting to note that the pH scale is a logarithmic scale. This means that a change of one pH unit indicates a ten fold increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions. For instance, a solution that has a pH of 2 has ten times as many free H+ ions as a solution with a pH of 3!

How can the pH of a substance be known?

For accurate pH value readings, we can test a spot in question with Hydrion paper or pH strips. The spot to be tested is moistened with distilled water (neutral, which is pH 7) and blotted with the test paper to give a reading.
Once the pH has been determined, a cleaning product can be chosen which is best suited to neutralize the offending spot.

 

[ruff]

What you feel, got nothing to do with the warranty.

What I'm saying is, if someone feels the need to nuke a carpet, it usually an indication that the carpet has not been cleaned at frequent enough intervals to maintain the warranty in the first place. From all the warranties I have read, most require professional cleaning every 6-12 months to maintain the warranty, and require documentation to prove it was cleaned professionally, on schedule.. So the chances of running into a trashed carpet that needs to be nuked, where the owner also has a stack of dated receipts from professional cleaners, all within the cleaning frequency guidelines, are pretty slim to none.

Exactly!
When a carpet needs the nuke, nuke it- that carpet has lost the warranty before your prespray hit the fabric.
Not one customer will accept the explanation like this: "your carpets won't clean up good enough because of the chemicals we need to use may void a warranty. But we can get it beautifully cleaned up if you allow us to use the stronger chemical. Do you want us to make your carpets clean or keep your warranty alive (which may already been voided by the misuse of said carpet)?"
They all pay -for us to clean the carpet as clean as possible!

No Zee and Frank, you did not get it.
EXACTLY! NOT!!
This was the point I made a few posts before:

......if one needs to use a higher Ph than the warranty requires, the client should be advised. And be the one to make that decision (with the cleaner's input and explanation.)
After all: It is their property, their warranty and their decision to make.

As a good carpet cleaner, you should advise them what you think would work best.
Give them the choice, yet, it is their property and their final decision to make. Making that decision for them without getting their approval is both patronizing and disrespectful.

True, most clients when given that choice (I've done it) will choose the better cleaning results over maintaining the warranty. However, most heavily soiled carpets do not require to be nuked. They can be cleaned very well with fifth generation approved products by increasing time agitation and heat and still not voiding the warranty at least on the cleaner side.

Can all trashed carpets be saved that way? No, we know that.
However, choosing the nuke em option, should be the choice of last resort.