Mrs Wagner...question.

Mikey P

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A well known but some what shy member here asked me a good question today and I figured I better let YOU answer it.


The extortion that the CRI/SOA assholes are putting to the manufactures is different than the extortion you and Joe laid on non ethical cleaners is..? :?:
 

Bjorn

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I figure LiZa is in a private coaching bunker with Anthony Robins looking at ways to re-invent old Dan Kennedy marking stuff to Tanning bed salons owners. Now that the carpet cleaner tap has been turned off
 

LisaWagnerCRS

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Mike - I don't know why you call me Mrs. ...

Manufacturers for ten products are assessed up to $20,000 for the SOA process collectively.

Ethical Services, you agree to the code, you pay $35 filing/web fee, and that's it. If you want more space up there, you can pay for a larger display - but most just do that basic listing.

The rankings are based on the consumer reviews, which are unfiltered - good and bad - so it is self-policing. I have not had a consumer complaint to handle in over 2 years.

If your "friend" wants to compare $35 to $20,000 - then your friend may be missing a chromosome.

I'd like to remind you why that site even came about, and was put up in less than a month when the web was first starting 12 years ago. Joe had done 3 tv exposes locally on bait-n-switch cleaners, and got a spot on 20/20 to do a national story. (This was a year before I began working with Piranha). Joe gave them IICRC's website to refer - but the problem was that EVERY bait-n-switch cleaner from the local exposes, and the ones they came across in the 20/20 piece were ALL IICRC certified cleaners being referred to them.

So he bought a domain, paid tens of thousands to get a site up, and the ES site was promoted, and they did list IICRC in the back links of the web page story when it went up.

The site has had multiple changes and different formats, especially when I took it over as a project and restructured the listings and infrastructure. The one plus of that site has been that it was the first one in the service sector to allow unfiltered comments from clients - so literally consumers could read what neighbors said.

We are converting the system into an Amazon type ranking platform - but that is a beast of a project, and right now it still brings in constant flow of referrals, so it's a project that will come about ... but it is not high on my list right now. Paula is... we have her Starpower event this upcoming week. :) http://www.starpowerevent.com/joe

I actually took in feedback and made adjustments to the site and oversaw that project - so the complaints that come up regarding that are decade old complaints, and on the system I did not design, and if there had not been a B&S problem with the IICRC cleaners, would never have come about.

So... $35... if that's extortion on par with CRI, then let me know and I'll send you your $35 back. :)

Lisa
 

Cameron1

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Ethical Services, you agree to the code, you pay $35 filing/web fee, and that's it.



THANKS JOE!
 

Jim Pemberton

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I never thought I'd say this..............

Two months ago, a customer of mine in western PA asked for me to find a carpet cleaner in Philadelphia for his daughter. (He wasn't driving his truck mount all the way there for her)

I gave her the IICRC site:

One cleaner never answered the phone.
One cleaner argued against things she asked for on the phone: Would he wear shoe covers, use an airmover, and keep his hoses of the grass. You know, unreasonable stuff.

The one she scheduled with broke two appointments.

I called Lisa, swallowed some pride (she and I have disagreed on this subject in the past), and asked her to get me one of her ethical service people for this lady to call.

The guy was terrific, did everything she wanted, and then exceeded her expectations.

Say what you want about the program and how it appears to you, it served my customer's daughter well.

Excuse me while I pick crow feathers out of my teeth.

And, to the point, Ethical Services doesn't rely on bad science and bad testing protocols.
(Taking another shot at the SOA takes the "crow taste" out of my mouth......)
 

Ken Snow

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Mikey's like that 8 year old on the play ground has his friend go up to a cute 8 year old girl and says "I have a friend who thinks your cute". Sadly I was like that too :-)
 

truckmount girl

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I don't think the main problem with ES was the paid listing which says you're ethical and have been screened (even though all you do is agree to a code of ethics, but no one actually checks to see if they are being followed)...but with the wording below the red line....in the original site which gave the impression that those other cleaners in the area who did not register might be unethical. I'm sure Tony has the original wording somewhere. Those cleaners listed below the line had to call and ask to have their company names removed after they became aware their company was there...with no compensation for whatever damage to their reputation was accomplished in the mean time. These companies were not asked if they wanted to register or even made aware of the ES program before their company was listed as POSSIBLY unethical, and unscreened, before it hit the boards, the only cleaners marketed to for ES were those in the JP network.

I greatly admire the work Lisa is doing on the CRI/SOA program, but we will probably always remain at odds over ES....especially in it's original form.

Take care,
Lisa
 

Desk Jockey

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I greatly admire the work Lisa is doing on the CRI/SOA program, but we will probably always remain at odds over ES....especially in it's original form.
I agree. I even asked to have our companies name removed instead of showing up below the red line.

I guess it's hard to hold Lisa W. responsible for the original, although she did defend it when it came under fire. Water under the bridge for me, especially considering the task she has under taken currently. :wink:
 

ruff

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Mikey P said:
A well known but some what shy member here asked me a good question today and I figured I better let YOU answer it.


The extortion that the CRI/SOA assholes are putting to the manufactures is different than the extortion you and Joe laid on non ethical cleaners is..? :?:

Even if that was a "scumbaggy" thing to do, and I don't know the details, what does it have to do with the CRI/SOA issue?

Say, she was wrong then, does that make her stand on CRI/SOA wrong now.

What are you the ethical police?

Or just the shy people savior?
 

Mikey P

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all of the above.



Dragonfly Girl can take some heat for past dastardly actions with her evil counter part Piranha Boy and still come out smelling like Bacout for her heroine-ness.
 

The Great Oz

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Mike's question may have had a beginning in "ethics" but he was really asking about hypocracy. Does Al Gore get a pass on his gargantuan carbon footprint because he wants to educate you on how to reduce yours? Can the pot call the kettle black?

In this case, the question was asked and Lisa answered, admitting the initial layout and wording of the Ethical Cleaners site was smelly. She did something that the people she's calling out have not done; listen to those that challenge a decision, see their point of view, admit there is a problem, make adjustments to the program to remove the negatives, answer the questions.

Works pretty well doesn't it?

Something for our smelly industry groups to think about, eh?
 
G

Guest

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What motivates people to do things ? For some its money, for some the ability to give back to an industry that has been good to them. If Joe P. spent thousands of dollars on a site, it wasn't for the 35.00 dollars listings, it was for the folks that were compelled to spend more to leapfrog over others to get prime placement, whether they were ethical or not. The fact that Joe set it up like he did, with the appearance that folks under the red line were questionable was pure marketing and designed to extract money from cleaners than actually doing folks a service.

Some people dont get it, hypocrisy is hypocrisy regardless of the dollar figure. Yes, I agree with every point you are making on CRI, but its no different than what you guys tried to do. Money grab.
 
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Noble Carpet Cleaners
In response to Pembertons thread. Jim, I have heard of just as many “positive” responses to people using IICRC cleaners of their list so that doesn't mean anything to me. And I’ve no idea who this “Ethical Services” organization is but that referral doesn’t mean diddle to me as well. The person responding from that list of cleaners could have been tipped off for all anybody knows. Think about dude, everyone knows who you are, especially Lisa. You think they’re not going to go out of their way to make sure someones “all the ball”?
Now smack me up side the head but you’re telling us that your customer can’t find a reputable cleaner all on their own in their own community? Dude that’s sad. I’ve gotten requests for years from people outside my area for a referral on a cleaner. How tell them how hell am I supposed to know who’s good and who’s not. It’s a crap shoot referring to the IICRC and any other organization.
You think everyday folks find a dentist or other health professional by going to out-of-town referral sources? Nope, most ask around for word of mouth. That’s just another part of this pompous arrogant industry of ours. Thinking we’re different then other industry. I tell many people to ask around. Get a real referral.
 

LisaWagnerCRS

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Why are all the Coopers I know nimrods? (I'm just asking... is it genetic?)

Here's the timeline for you... 20/20 event - refusal to post IICRC, so another site was created, first EVER review based platform in our industry developed, had that "WARNING!" red line that all of you got riled up about.

That warning tag was up for all of THREE months, over 10 years ago.

It was actually the conversation about all of that which led to my talking more with Joe (we were working on some CFI projects together, he was helping me out when I was the SD director volunteer.

Joe never listens to critics. He has that great ability to just shut out people who will never be his clients out. But I made some suggestions to change the wording, just as a peer, and it was changed.

He did not do it because of some of you here... he did it because I explained why it would be more helpful to consumers to adjust it.

Shortly after that, and a few more projects, he hired me as a consultant... and more than a decade later I'm running the cleaning/restoration division and buyers group, and working on high-profile marketing consulting projects - Make-A-Wish is our next big one.

So... I suppose in some weird way, I probably owe some thanks to some of you for the career I've had with him. Because it was one area we discussed in depth, and found alignment in the goals we had, and saw we had some different ideas on how to get there. Shortly after that my brother Bryan died - and Joe literally saved me during that entire time, which I won't bore you with here.

Yet - for a decade now, that first 3 month period has been the foundation for the complaints even today. Which though is tiring at times...ultimately always drives "lurker" traffic to the site and generates more subscriptions. Always. You guys have literally, unintentionally, made that project one that has NEVER needed a single ad or promotional campaign. In the beginning that was great, because all the profits were donated, so it generated donor dollars - but for years it's been structured at break-even, so it's just a growing structure connecting cleaners and consumers, that does what it's meant to do, create good cleaning experiences. I have not handled a complaint for years. Just the ones here. :)

And if THIS gets to be the one thing hung over MY head a decade after the fact, it's not only silly, but also hypocritical.

You are telling me that NONE of you have ever had a business project that sounded like a GREAT idea, that you discovered needed to be adjusted?

You've never broke a lamp in a house, or ruined a rug? Or told a client "no problem, I know what to do" when you had no friggin' clue and prayed the whole time?

I had a restoration company who subcontracts to me run over a client's dog. How long does that take to live down?

You've never gotten emotionally unwrapped and said something you shouldn't have, or did something worse like read your child's diary, or hacked into your EX's email account, or done anything you look back on like get into a horrible relationship, and say "what the hell was I thinking? I was nuts?"

I have a whole list of things I've done that I've learned from. Mistakes, bad calls, misinterpretations, and just plain bad judgment - especially when emotions are concerned. They cloud your thinking. I just put a post up today that crossed the line on the CRI blog that I decided with a clearer head I needed to pull... which I did.

Heck, when I found out right out of college that my fiance was sleeping with his lab partner in med school, after nine years in that relationship, where I helped him not only write his Ph.D. dissertation, but also wrote his essay to get him into Dartmouth... when I found out, I was livid. He was very private, and I blasted an email to every single student in his medical school graduating class exposing all the dirty details. He was mortified. She transferred.

I was young... I was upset... I got more than even... but in hindsight, it was a stupid emotional response of a child, and not a grown woman. And I eventually went and apologized to both.

The goal of Ethical Services has ALWAYS been put service-minded cleaners with quality-seeking consumers, period. Joe's marketing style back then was much more brash, and he was attacked much more relentlessly back then on everything from his ponytail to his spelling... I remember Mac Clark telling me when I was CFI convention chair that if Joe was anywhere on the program, or in the trade show, he would not speak.

I found out later that was simply jealousy, but that was how controversial he was at the time. And... that was how he built his company as large as he did so quickly. Some jump in and take the hits anyway... while most stay safely on the sidelines. Whats the saying? Pioneers have arrows in their backs...

The site still provides value - a lot of it - for cleaners and consumers. And it was a brilliant idea he jumped on because he was talented enough to get himself on 20/20. Don't know if you know this, but that ain't easy...

So... I will continue to remind you of how long ago we are talking about the "warning" wording.

This is like going to a family reunion and having your stepmom remind everyone of how you did something embarrassing when you were 9, and you have to go over the same damn thing over and over even when you are 39.

Cooper - nice to know that you are truly infallible and never change anything in your business ever - you bat 1,000%. The other Cooper thinks the same way... so maybe you two are in fact related. Or at the very least would make a nice couple.

And Jim, thank you for sharing the ES referral story. That was awhile ago, and you'll notice that even though we clashed on this exact topic for years... I did not run here and post a word when you asked me for the referral from ES, and did not post the testimonials from the client either. I never expected you to ever share that here. With that project all I ever care about it whether the client is happy, and the cleaner. I could care less what anyone else thinks on it, especially now... there is so much other work to be doing.

Okay then... to all of YOU here... if YOU were to design your own referral program, ala SOA (at least the "idea" of it...) or ala Ethical Services, what would YOU make the requirements be?

Seriously.

IICRC certified? Bonded? Certain equipment? Fair wages? Guarantees?

Pretend CRI comes to YOU with their tail between their legs... what is YOUR solution?

Eventually they are going to have to ask... so we might as well begin crafting what that would look like. Why not do it here on MB. Since you think all the other systems stink... what would you do instead?

Lisa
 

brucedeloatch

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Lisa...

That was a great, constructive response. So what would WE do? I, too have some reservations about the relevance of the CRI-SOA as it is currently structured.

One thing that I would like to see considered at least, is adding an oily, sticky component to the soil. Or make 3 samples with different soil compositions.

I also feel that a machine that meets certain minimum requirements, such as (arbitrarily selected numbers follow) 400 psi @ 1.5 gpm and 180 degrees constant, 200 cfm @ 12" lift automatically be approved without testing. After all, if you look at TCS truckmounts, Prochem machines, Duane's machines, Lee's machines, Hydramaster, Butler, Cleanco, etc, etc, etc, they all use similar components, produce similar heat, similar vacuum, etc. Certainly all of them perform far beyond the level of a Rug Doctor.

So the only difference can be operator skill and chemistry. I agree wholeheartedly with the testing of chemistry. We all know that there are certain chemicals that perform better. There are still some out there that will damage stain-resist carpets and promote rapid re-soiling. We need to know that information, and this testing is ONE way of accomplishing that.

Cleaning and restoration professionals are by and large NOT dumb. We can figure many things out for ourselves. And while I do feel that Standards are important, and Programs can be very positive and helpful, we have to look at them from time to time, and change them in order to maintain relevance.

There are several trade associations in this industry that represent the cleaner. If you are a member of one, contact your Board of Directors and let them know that this is a concern. Try to work as a cohesive group. Be constructive. Lisa is on the right track here. Help create your own Program, whether it is in cooperation with CRI, through your own trade associations or at the grass roots level.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Dude that’s sad

Yes it is sad Scott. I think the real story here isn't the IICRC (which most of you know I love else I would not be a director. I just speak up about it like my sister does about me when she thinks I'm not measuring up!) or Ethical Services.

Its that it shouldn't be so difficult to find a good cleaner, but it is. Its not difficult because there are so few good cleaners, either. Its difficult because its hard for the consumer to find someone that they trust.

However any of you want to build your businesses, you need to realize that "trust" is an overused term, and if you even try to use the word in marketing, you create less trust instead of more.

You need to work hard (and smart) every day to build a business reputation that proves your trustworthy (and therefore "referral worthy") every day.

And yet, not say it.

One of my favorite quotes is from Margaret Thatcher:

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to say you are, you're not"

Trust is like that.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hypocrites are great at shucking and jiving . Marketing ones are better , but Joe P disciples are the best. Great start with the name calling Lisa. I could have called you Joe P with breasts , but I didnt. But having shared that thought , its not far from the truth . You have worked with him , trained under him , and developed your style and arrogance from him. You continue to defend a site which started out as a vehicle to extract money from carpet cleaners. And you continue to try to humanize Joe P. and yourself by namedropping charities every other line. Can we all expect you to work in some of your favorite celebs next ? Will Paula make a personal appearance on your behalf next ? Will Sir Richard walk on water for us all ?

Truth is , Lisa , you're a proxy for Joe P. Hell , he could be typing all your posts for all we know. And a heads up for you - have you ever considered the fact that maybe Mac Clark just didnt want to be associated with slime ? I know it may be a shock to you , but most folks feel the same way . Unethical in marketing , unethical in life , so it stands to reason that these type personalities are going to attract like minded people, which automatically makes this whole soapbox episode suspect.

As far as my business needing help, when that day comes, it will be garnered from a true professional and not some sideshow creeps like the Joe P . ilk.


Bruce, great post , you cut right to the heart of the matter and nailed it.

James
 

Mikey P

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between JAMES Cooper and I, we'll have every super rat in this industry exposed.

Cooper can hang his hat on Ken Harris and Rob Allen, two villainous scoundrels that took him a year or more of undercover work to finally expose. While I can take credit for nailing Lisa The Unethical to the Kryptonite cross.

Shame on you Lisa, SHAME ON YOU!!

I never in my career broke a lamp or bled a rug and how dare you insinuate such an act.



Jim, I want her out of here NOW!

























































:mrgreen:


batter up!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Mikey P said:
between JAMES Cooper and I, we'll have every super rat in this industry exposed.

Cooper can hang his hat on Ken Harris and Rob Allen, two villainous scoundrels that took him a year or more of undercover work to finally expose. While I can take credit for nailing Lisa The Unethical to the Kryptonite cross.

Shame on you Lisa, SHAME ON YOU!!

I never in my career broke a lamp or bled a rug and how dare you insinuate such an act.



Jim, I want her out of here NOW!


























































:mrgreen:


batter up!

maybe you should give her a chance to renounce her Joe P past first . She seems like a good egg , just misguided . We have all been there before Mikey .
 

Mikey P

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What makes you think I have a problem with Joe?


90% of the broke dick nimrods in this country need a guy like him to think for them.


Id shake his hand and break bread with him before I got within ten feet of Ken or Rob.
 
G

Guest

Guest
is that an endorsement of his business practices ? Its true some cleaners do need some hand holding when it comes to marketing , but there are others that dont use the same "scare tactics" to drum up business. Would you use scare tactic marketing to build your business Mikey ?
 

joe harper

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Can I get in the game ...COACH... "can i"...."Can I"...:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Oh..."thats right"... :cry:

I am "sUsPenDed"...INDEFIANTLY.... :roll:

What if ...I..."come CLEAN about the StErIoDs"... :shock:
 

truckmount girl

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That warning tag was up for all of THREE months, over 10 years ago.

I think your timeline is a little...okay, way off here. I wasn't even on the boards 10 years ago. Your brother had already died and you were already involved with JP before the ES thing broke out. I can't log in to ICS anymore, but I'm sure someone can do a Nava Search and come up with the dates. I'd say it was 5-6 years ago at the very most. And you were quite vociferous in your defense of the project.

I remember standing in a CCT class, in which the website was brought up, while Doug Heiferman called Joe and told him he'd sue the pants off of him if he didn't get rid of that listing and he said his family was full of New York attorneys who would do it too. He was fuming for the rest of the class.

The infamous "pink postcard" mailed to all with the unfortunately chosen wording which went out a couple years ago was a barometer of how Joe sees the majority of our industry and he obviously thinks we're all idiots.

Lisa, you are doing so much good with your work on the CRI SOA issue, we can look beyond past issues. You are on a path which the rank and file can get behind. may I make a suggestion? Feel free to tell me to piss off. Instead of manipulating the timeline or facts of the past, instead of defending or making excuses, just give a sincere and simple apology, remedy the problem quickly (if not already done), learn from the mistake and move on. I don't think anyone has much issue, if any with the ES site now, the issue was (and is) the defense of the original site, changing only after the poop it the fan, etc. which bothered people most.

A leopard may not be able to change his spots....HOWEVER a cougar in the forest may look spotted, but when he moves out of the trees and into the open sunlight it becomes apparent his coat is actually clear and spotless....Joe has been your forest - so to speak. We like you best out in the clear. And, no - I'm not calling you a cougar...LOL...unfortunate analogy....

Your work on the SOA issue is priceless. Please keep it up. Your insightful intelligence and articulate writing style combined with the great team of allies you are currently working with in the IICRC has you in a position to make right a terrible wrong being played against our industry and consumers, we will always be in your debt (along with Jim P, Tony W, Debbie L.) for the work you and the rest are doing.

Take care,
Lisa
 

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