Mrs Wagner...question.

[joe harper]

That warning tag was up for all of THREE months, over 10 years ago.

I think your timeline is a little...okay, way off here. I wasn't even on the boards 10 years ago. Your brother had already died and you were already involved with JP before the ES thing broke out. I can't log in to ICS anymore, but I'm sure someone can do a Nava Search and come up with the dates. I'd say it was 5-6 years ago at the very most. And you were quite vociferous in your defense of the project.

I remember standing in a CCT class, in which the website was brought up, while Doug Heiferman called Joe and told him he'd sue the pants off of him if he didn't get rid of that listing and he said his family was full of New York attorneys who would do it too. He was fuming for the rest of the class.

The infamous "pink postcard" mailed to all with the unfortunately chosen wording which went out a couple years ago was a barometer of how Joe sees the majority of our industry and he obviously thinks we're all idiots.

Lisa, you are doing so much good with your work on the CRI SOA issue, we can look beyond past issues. You are on a path which the rank and file can get behind. may I make a suggestion? Feel free to tell me to piss off. Instead of manipulating the timeline or facts of the past, instead of defending or making excuses, just give a sincere and simple apology, remedy the problem quickly (if not already done), learn from the mistake and move on. I don't think anyone has much issue, if any with the ES site now, the issue was (and is) the defense of the original site, changing only after the poop it the fan, etc. which bothered people most.

A leopard may not be able to change his spots....HOWEVER a cougar in the forest may look spotted, but when he moves out of the trees and into the open sunlight it becomes apparent his coat is actually clear and spotless....Joe has been your forest - so to speak. We like you best out in the clear. And, no - I'm not calling you a cougar...LOL...unfortunate analogy....

Your work on the SOA issue is priceless. Please keep it up. Your insightful intelligence and articulate writing style combined with the great team of allies you are currently working with in the IICRC has you in a position to make right a terrible wrong being played against our industry and consumers, we will always be in your debt (along with Jim P, Tony W, Debbie L.) for the work you and the rest are doing.

Take care,
Lisa

I think ..I will cancel my TEE TIME.."In anticipation of Lisa W. response"

 

[Guest]

That warning tag was up for all of THREE months, over 10 years ago.

I think your timeline is a little...okay, way off here. I wasn't even on the boards 10 years ago. Your brother had already died and you were already involved with JP before the ES thing broke out. I can't log in to ICS anymore, but I'm sure someone can do a Nava Search and come up with the dates. I'd say it was 5-6 years ago at the very most. And you were quite vociferous in your defense of the project.

I remember standing in a CCT class, in which the website was brought up, while Doug Heiferman called Joe and told him he'd sue the pants off of him if he didn't get rid of that listing and he said his family was full of New York attorneys who would do it too. He was fuming for the rest of the class.

The infamous "pink postcard" mailed to all with the unfortunately chosen wording which went out a couple years ago was a barometer of how Joe sees the majority of our industry and he obviously thinks we're all idiots.

Lisa, you are doing so much good with your work on the CRI SOA issue, we can look beyond past issues. You are on a path which the rank and file can get behind. may I make a suggestion? Feel free to tell me to piss off. Instead of manipulating the timeline or facts of the past, instead of defending or making excuses, just give a sincere and simple apology, remedy the problem quickly (if not already done), learn from the mistake and move on. I don't think anyone has much issue, if any with the ES site now, the issue was (and is) the defense of the original site, changing only after the poop it the fan, etc. which bothered people most.

A leopard may not be able to change his spots....HOWEVER a cougar in the forest may look spotted, but when he moves out of the trees and into the open sunlight it becomes apparent his coat is actually clear and spotless....Joe has been your forest - so to speak. We like you best out in the clear. And, no - I'm not calling you a cougar...LOL...unfortunate analogy....

Your work on the SOA issue is priceless. Please keep it up. Your insightful intelligence and articulate writing style combined with the great team of allies you are currently working with in the IICRC has you in a position to make right a terrible wrong being played against our industry and consumers, we will always be in your debt (along with Jim P, Tony W, Debbie L.) for the work you and the rest are doing.

Take care,
Lisa

Lisa ( GG), I would also like to apologize for any and all parts I may have had in hurting your business. In my differences with Greenie, you got caught in the crossfire and I wish it had been different.

Mikey, you do know that Lisa ( W) is still on the case at TMF . Perhaps she is trying to show him the light?

I Also want to thank Tony W. and Jim P. for their hard work . I understand that a lot of things involving current issues cant be spoken of , but I would think their behind the scenes work is more valuable and productive than sideline grandstanding . Wasnt Lisa on the board when the IICRC added color correction tothe masters list ? Seems like a lot of discussion on the boards and a lot of eloquent posts were made but ignored. If I am wrong , accept my apologies .

 

[Guest]

Remember to stay professional Lisa Wagner. For example, no matter how long Terje has hounded Steve Toburen, Steve has never lost it, and stayed professional in his responses. You may be the "Rug Chick" here, but your main business is doing business with cleaners.

 

[Guest]

actually , there is a certain disdain for cleaners from Lisa . She seems to think we are all broke dicks cleaners who dont have 2 nickles to rub together. From ics:

Tony ...
Posted By Lisa Wagner on 10/20/2008 at 2:20 AM

Just to correct what you've stated, if you think anything done within Piranha is due to anyone on this board saying "dang it I'm getting a lawyer" is ridiculous.

They get mad about IICRC certification changes - threaten a class action suit .. nothing happens. They get mad about CRI, threaten a class action suit ... nothing happens.

You see, lawyers actually cost money ... and many on here won't spend money on a local seminar, much less on hiring an actual expert like a lawyer.

The change in the copy on Ethical Services was mine, done shortly after I became the chair of the advisory council at the time ... and as you know very well, I do not take direction from the few constant complainers on this board, but rather from the ones who are trying to contribute and make this industry a better place.

So ... since I actually was involved directly in the group responsible for this change, and not on the outside using my energy to create a story ... I thought I'd let you know the actual scenario so you would not be speaking from ignorance.

You missed an incredible conference, but I'm sure you probably learned just as much by lurking here the past three days.

Hugs from Phoenix!!!!!

 

[Ken Snow]

I think you are exactly right James, and I can't blame her a bit.

 

[Desk Jockey]

If that's what she thinks then I'd say she's probably more right than she is wrong. However unless she said it you're just putting words in her mouth.

The reality is entry level start up is pretty damn cheap.

Any hack with a portable calls himself professional, yet his investment is but a fraction of what the average cleaner has in his setup.

90% fit the brokedick catagory, the rest of us have at least three nickels. :wink:

 

[Ken Snow]

Good point Richard and although I agree with your numbers I think it is the attitude more than what someone might actually have that can sometimes give the BD impression. None of us have any clue what someone may have asset wise, but the way we communicate or present ourselves gives an impression.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Ok you busted me Ken, I only have 2-nickels, and a couple of pennies but I'm trying!
:mrgreen:

I've never cared what others have, it doesn't matter to me if you have a lot (unless you're willing to share) or if you have a little. I make my judgments on you the person, and how well or poorly you treat others.

 

[Ken Snow]

That's what counts my man. I really get a judge of pople by the way an animal or a young child responds to them. They have an inate judge of charactor.

 

[truckmount girl]

To address Lisa (W)'s post from back in '07, '08 posted above:

There is no way any INDIVIDUAL, or even a single company is going to fund and/or spearhead a grassroots legal battle on any issue in this industry....at least for long. What we have always lacked has not been the passion or even the money (collectively), but the cohesiveness.... and the infrastructure - to support our efforts. Whether that be by an expansion of the mission of the IICRC or through the efforts of an upstart organization. Few have the time and connections to organize an entirely new organization, so an expansion of the IICRC mission to include advocating and educating for the industry not just to the consumer, but to carpet manufacturers, installers, inspectors, insurance companies and franchises would be the logical move. Protecting the interests of the owner/operator and small companies is vital in this day and age of big box retailers and mega-franchises and the subsequent lowering of standards that come with them.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[LisaWagnerCRS]

So again, what would YOUR program criteria be?

Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Lisa

 

[truckmount girl]

Whom are you addressing, and specifically what program are you referring to?

Take care,
Lisa

 

[joe harper]

So again, what would YOUR program criteria be?

Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Lisa

As political as this discussion is...."You would be BETTER off to hire a LobByIsT...rather than an AttOrNeY.." :roll:


I VOTE for "BawB VaWtEr"...just give him an expense account...He will get it done... :wink:

 

[joe harper]

Whom are you addressing, and specifically what program are you referring to?

Take care,
Lisa

a]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzPBUGUM7KQa]

 

[Ryan]

I VOTE for "BawB VaWtEr"...just give him an expense account...He will get it done... :wink:

I second that motion!!

 

[Desk Jockey]

Would it not be better to set a minimum standard for Heat, Vacuum & Pressure? All the major TM manufactures as well as any other builders could give their imput and come up with some reasonable numbers.

Chemicals could be done the same way with a reasonable PH range. It would knock the certifying fee out of the program and in fact for that matter, shouldn't the IICRC be the one setting the standard?

Why should we as an industry let someone that doesn't know cleaning tell us (the cleaning industry) how to clean? :?

 

[Ryan]

Would it not be better to set a minimum standard for Heat, Vacuum & Pressure? All the major TM manufactures as well as any other builders could give their imput and come up with some reasonable numbers.

Chemicals could be done the same way with a reasonable PH range. It would knock the certifying fee out of the program and in fact for that matter, shouldn't the IICRC be the one setting the standard?

Why should we as an industry let someone that doesn't know cleaning tell us (the cleaning industry) how to clean? :?

And make 'em measure the Heat, Vacuum, & Pressure at the end of the wand, not by going off what the blower, pump manufactures ect. specs say.

 

[bob vawter]

that being sED.....
i believe that any structured org that tries ta tell a CC HOW & WHY he works the way he does is bound to fail.....
we are a wild an' crazy bunch.....an' DON'T much lik to be told what to do....
evidenced by the group here and MOST other cleaners i've ran across....
so you are ALL whipping a dED horse that AIN"T going to get up an' win the derby!

 

[Guest]

Bob , you hit the nail on the head, BUT I think that if it is something that makes sense , we are also a reasonable bunch too. We just didnt decide to become independent to have some dick decide its ok to make money off us because he can.

 

[bob vawter]

Bob , you hit the nail on the head, BUT I think that if it is something that makes sense , we are also a reasonable bunch too. We just didnt decide to become independent to have some dick decide its ok to make money off us because he can.

I DID????

errrr....i mean...yes i did!

are you connOr?

 

[The Great Oz]

Would it not be better to set a minimum standard for Heat, Vacuum & Pressure? All the major TM manufactures as well as any other builders could give their imput and come up with some reasonable numbers.

Chemicals could be done the same way with a reasonable PH range. It would knock the certifying fee out of the program and in fact for that matter, shouldn't the IICRC be the one setting the standard?

Why should we as an industry let someone that doesn't know cleaning tell us (the cleaning industry) how to clean?

Oh, you mean like Steven Ashkin's article in the current ICS? Nice that a "green" chemical manufacturer can pretend that cold water/low-moisture cleaning is better because he got his education in cleaning from GreenSeal and can hide his chemical industry roots behind an "educational" group instead of admitting that he has no background in the carpet cleaning business.

For every well-meaning group that gets together to come up with this standard there will be many well-funded and self-serving people to fight it. That's why it took a group with the clout of the rug mills to make a company like Johnson Wax stop making crap carpet cleaning products. It's also why I'd prefer to have the mills fix their program rather than just knock it down.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Bryan do you think it's possible to salvage the current program? It seems to me that it would make more sense to scrap it than give PTL more money and time with the XRF gun. :x

 

[Jim Pemberton]

As one of the finest minds we have, I usually agree readily with Bryan.

The reason that I cannot do so this time is that the people who are primarily responsible for the program are not responsive to or respectful of our industry. There ARE ways to make a program like this work for all but the most irascible of the cleaners I know.

But you have to start with people who will really listen, and not just patronize.

If those in charge have a massive change in their value system and perspective on our industry, we could try. Short of that, it will take a few different players and a completely new attitude first.

Then I can see conversation beginning.

But not with these people.

 

[bob vawter]

As one of the finest minds we have, I usually agree readily with Bryan.

The reason that I cannot do so this time is that the people who are primarily responsible for the program are not responsive to or respectful of our industry. There ARE ways to make a program like this work for all but the most irascible of the cleaners I know.

But you have to start with people who will really listen, and not just patronize.

If those in charge have a massive change in their value system and perspective on our industry, we could try. Short of that, it will take a few different players and a completely new attitude first.

Then I can see conversation beginning.

But not with these people.

Jim P...you build it....
and they will come!

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I agree with Jim on this one. At the same time I think our different backgrounds should make us MORE effective if we don't nitpick each other over those differences. We collectively have the best of the industry.

I'm not a current client of Host, Pirhana, GGlides, CCSop, Bane Clene or several other parts of our industry. However I deeply respect the people who love to clean carpets and share that love.

Deborah Lema, Lisa Wagner, Lisa Weber, John G, Bill Bane, and many others are not just "pot-stirrers", they are representative of the heart and soul of our industry.

We have no shortage of good people, we just need to all push at the same time with one voice.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[truckmount girl]

Well said, Lee.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Joe Bristor]

History repeats itself...
farmers vs lobbyists,
Governments vs unions,
schools vs corporations.
Nothing new here.

I say bypass the burea-crazy.
Leave them to their own means and they will disappear.
We are our own solidarity.

We as cleaners already possess all the power.
The real proof has always been in the pudding.
I think we need more videos of the type TM vs Rug Doctor, but well produced and without Rob Allen and his cynicism.
-Show the reality of HWE vs lesser methods.
-Walk down the line showing the names of the truckmounts that can get it done, actually doing it.
-The PTL has its place I think, we just need to let them speak for themselves - to us - then let us vote what methods they use.
-Allow maintenance cleaning methods.
-Require DfE safe cleaners, solvents & protectors.
-Teach rudimentary spotting and the need for Hazardous chemicals for certain problems like rust, tannins, dyes.
Entitle it something like "with love from us cleaners"
Immortalize the videos.
It would empower them (the CONSUMER) to make the right decision.

As a group, us cleaners could easily put up enough money to distribute the videos for all CONSUMERS to see.
The only question is WILL WE?

 

[harryhides]

Re: Lisa...

That was a great, constructive response. So what would WE do? I, too have some reservations about the relevance of the CRI-SOA as it is currently structured.

One thing that I would like to see considered at least, is adding an oily, sticky component to the soil. Or make 3 samples with different soil compositions.

I also feel that a machine that meets certain minimum requirements, such as (arbitrarily selected numbers follow) 400 psi @ 1.5 gpm and 180 degrees constant, 200 cfm @ 12" lift automatically be approved without testing. After all, if you look at TCS truckmounts, Prochem machines, Duane's machines, Lee's machines, Hydramaster, Butler, Cleanco, etc, etc, etc, they all use similar components, produce similar heat, similar vacuum, etc. Certainly all of them perform far beyond the level of a Rug Doctor.

So the only difference can be operator skill and chemistry. I agree wholeheartedly with the testing of chemistry. We all know that there are certain chemicals that perform better. There are still some out there that will damage stain-resist carpets and promote rapid re-soiling. We need to know that information, and this testing is ONE way of accomplishing that.

Cleaning and restoration professionals are by and large NOT dumb. We can figure many things out for ourselves. And while I do feel that Standards are important, and Programs can be very positive and helpful, we have to look at them from time to time, and change them in order to maintain relevance.

There are several trade associations in this industry that represent the cleaner. If you are a member of one, contact your Board of Directors and let them know that this is a concern. Try to work as a cohesive group. Be constructive. Lisa is on the right track here. Help create your own Program, whether it is in cooperation with CRI, through your own trade associations or at the grass roots level.

Great question Bruce and in general I concur.
Though I would say that Bruce's own Association ( SCRT ) has the greatest opportunity to change the CRI's poor and dismissive attitude and also bears some of the responsibility for their current attitude towards Carpet cleaners and for not challenging those CRI people on their own Board a lot more and teaching them what they clearly do not know about dirt. Have your next Board meeting in a room with filthy carpet and challenge them to operate a Rug Doctor side by side with a Bronze rated TM right there Bruce. Video the results and have them put it up on their web-site and end this nonsense, once and for all, PLEASE !

To answer the question raised by Bruce and Lisa, assuming a huge change of attitude by the brass at CRI, I would suggest the following :

Since training and experience are the two biggest factors in producing a desirable result. THAT is what should be the main focus. And not just for Cleaners but also for Installers AND sales people and specifiers.

Item 1. Training with a higher pass rate and more hands-on for starters plus an apprentice program.

Since cleaners are generally weak on the subject of chemistry.
Item 2. Continue the testing of cleaning agents but do so using real, old and oily dirt on old worn out carpet.

Item 3. Drop the equipment rating altogether and simply require some basic specs. Unenforceable and way too many variables like how well is the machine maintained or how long is the hose ?

IICRC cannot afford to pay for this testing or for any potential lawsuits but they could write the specs.
Any tests being done should be approved by the ASTM.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

OK Tony, since you decided to spill..........

What is proposed will take individuals who will treat the cleaning industry like an equal partner, not a developmentally challenged child.

And don't anyone blame our "image", by the way. Very informed, educated, and astute individuals that are representative of everyone's values here have tried in the past, and have been treated dismissively.

Lee Stockwell made a good list of many of those people.

I have a rule about not eating with people I have no respect for.

I'd starve to death in Dalton.

 

[Bjorn]

b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1ZBJxdhL3Ab]