Salt-based pre-spray + metal =expensive problems

[regarossa]

John Olson" data-source="post: 4511551" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

You have to rinse them every job not almost every day. They look like they are built like a tank but even a tank not maintained will fall apart. Blaming it on Procyon was an easy, cheap, out for Reg to take in my opinion.

No, not exactly, it was an assessment based off of two machines that had the exact same problems and both users used Procyon.

I first told Brian he needed a better maintenance effort with his machine. I then asked him what prespray he was using, he said Procyon....I told him we had another machine with the same issues he had and both users were using this.

My comment to Brian was- "If you use a salt based chemistry, you have to do a better job on the maintenance of this machine" He said they maintained it very good...

I recommended that he discontinue using it if he was going to keep with the current maintenance procedure.

Now, look at the pictures and decide for yourself what could be the problem here.

Regarding the stainless mods- Stainless side plates would be of no use. The side plates are not the issue. The issue is cleaning out your machine. When the machine isn't cleaned out regularly, hair and carpet fibers get wound around the axles. If you do not remove this mess, it will force it's way under the plates that cover the bearings. Once it gets in behind those plates, it then builds up and forces itself into the bearings. Once it does that, the bearings get exposed to the process of whatever your applying to the carpet. You can usually replace the bearings fairly easily. However in these two cases (Brian & Steve L) the bearings fell apart and left the outer ring of the bearing in the side plate which cannot be removed and at that point results in a new side plate. In both cases they needed two new side plates as a result of this situation. The bearings were seized up on all four lower gears.

It's pretty simple- Clean your machine as often as it takes to avoid this type of damage. Mark Sagar has been using his for NINE YEARS... Mike P has a spotless ten inch and uses Procyon daily. (I've seen twenty year old units still rocking) Now, they are owner operators. If you have a multi tech operation, you have to do an end of day inspection on these just like you would inspect the dump tanks on your truck mounts.

 

[John Olson]

How can you even try to place the blame on any product with a machine that looks like that? Your post tells the tale. "If you do not remove this mess, it will force it's way under the plates that cover the bearings. Once it gets in behind those plates, it then builds up and forces itself into the bearings. Once it does that, the bearings get exposed to the process of whatever your applying to the carpet" If Procyon was a problem you would have hundreds of machines coming back not 2

 

[regarossa]

John Olson" data-source="post: 4511898" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

How can you even try to place the blame on any product with a machine that looks like that? Your post tells the tale. "If you do not remove this mess, it will force it's way under the plates that cover the bearings. Once it gets in behind those plates, it then builds up and forces itself into the bearings. Once it does that, the bearings get exposed to the process of whatever your applying to the carpet" If Procyon was a problem you would have hundreds of machines coming back not 2

I'm not saying Procyon is the sole culprit. I am saying if you choose to use it, expect problems if you don't clean your machine.

The bearings typically survive extraction even when machines look like that believe it or not. However when you add salt to the mix the bearings fall apart because of the corrosion once it enters the bearings.

Do you know of an instance where salt doesn't corrode metal over time?

 

[John Olson]

I'm not saying Procyon is the sole culprit. I am saying if you choose to use it, expect problems if you don't clean your machine.

The bearings typically survive extraction even when machines look like that believe it or not. However when you add salt to the mix the bearings fall apart because of the corrosion once it enters the bearings.

Do you know of an instance where salt doesn't corrode metal over time?

What I am saying is you had 2 machines 2 out of how many? Pointing a finger at a specific product intentionally or not based on two units that obviously weren't taken care of is careless at best. You have now made people question their use of a very well known and loved product. That is not ok period. If you had dozens and dozens and dozens then you could hypothesis but disparaging a brand based on two machines that were not taken care is bad form.

 

[regarossa]

Also let me add that we rarely see seized bearings. Typically a machine may have one and that is rare. Of the ones with excessive damage, salt was the main component that raised our suspicion.
I have personally worked on four machines that fit this scenario.
I also know a lot of people swear by Procyon and they have no issues with their machines.

 

[ID10t]

I do not question the use of my crb. I love it. If anything this thread shows the importance of maintaining equipment. This seems like a cautionary tale.

 

[regarossa]

John Olson" data-source="post: 4511910" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

What I am saying is you had 2 machines 2 out of how many? Pointing a finger at a specific product intentionally or not based on two units that obviously weren't taken care of is careless at best. You have now made people question their use of a very well known and loved product. That is not ok period. If you had dozens and dozens and dozens then you could hypothesis but disparaging a brand based on two machines that were not taken care is bad form.

I agree and that is why I have told each of these two owners that we are still gathering data to support this. It seems to be a combination of bad or lack of machine cleanup and a salt based pretreatment.

Also, it's not the first time encountering this. The first time was with a large franchise that added salt to their prespray to "treat" the ph levels. They had same issue.

I'm not here to bag on a brand.

 

[Able 1]

I took mine apart and found that stuff was getting under the bearing plates. I cleaned out behind the plates and used a adhesive/sealant with some clamps and it has taken care of the problem.. I think this should be done at the factory for every new unit made.

I love this adhesive for waste tank gaskets also..

 

[Able 1]

I'm real rough on mine(no where near the pics above though)..

 

[Donwand]

Wow, are you sure thats my crb?? In all fairness I was in the middle of cleaning tile and grout in the kitchen of a college when the machine stopped working. I do rinse out the machine daily, but I only removed the brushes once a week. Maybe that's why those brush rods were so hard to remove.

Obviously, I need to do better job on maintenance, especially if I continue to use Procyon.

 

[Able 1]

Usually the rods are hard to remove due to hair around the shaft.. When you take the brushes off use your vac hose to suck out both sides the brush hole also..

 

[Nate The Great]

I'm real rough on mine(no where near the pics above though)..

Rough on your 10"er, I'm rooming with @Desk Jockey .....

I'm not taking sides, but doesn't Ivan of Procyon sell the Lil Moe CRB machine? If I was a heavy user of those products, I'd buy one of his units...

I wanted a 10"er, but no more cash right now... I'm dusting off my other equipment that been collecting dust...

 

[ID10t]

Rough on your 10"er, I'm rooming with @Desk Jockey .....

I'm not taking sides, but doesn't Ivan of Procyon sell the Lil Moe CRB machine? If I was a heavy user of those products, I'd buy one of his units...

I wanted a 10"er, but no more cash right now... I'm dusting off my other equipment that been collecting dust...

Best decision of my life purchasing that machine or a close second to the vesacatmy.

 

[steve_64]

Again, I use prozyme plus and my bearings are getting loud already.

But I don't take as good as care of mine. It started putting and corroding in just a few months when I was taking better care of it. I kinda feel cleaning was a waste of time.

I love this little thing but I need durability. I don't feel these things are built for the average cleaner.

 

[Steve Lawrence]

you have to do an end of day inspection on these just like you would inspect the dump tanks on your truck mounts.

Reg, do you own a truck mount? Didn't think so. JK

 

[Cleanworks]

Usually the rods are hard to remove due to hair around the shaft.. When you take the brushes off use your vac hose to suck out both sides the brush hole also..

That's why I make her shave.

 

[pinosan]

moisture is the culprit on this scenario. Like Mr Olson mentioned, when the machine is not cleaned after each job, the pet hair and other debris force themselves along with moisture behind the cover plates and into the rubber seal of the bearing.
The products we use regardless of brand or manufacturer are for the most part degreasers. Once this degreasers make their way into the bearing, make the shaft bearings run with limited lubrication and with time, with no lubrication at all. This causes the loud grinding noise on the shafts (brush rods) bearings. Premature wear and more resistance in this bearings ocurre and transfer that resistance to the gear bearings and the gears. When those shaft bearings lock themselves force the gears, the weakest part of the assembly for a reason, to strip and stop working.

I had a conversation with another person who believed that nylon gears were stupid. I said, not really, I'm sure they can install metal gears on any of this artifacts, in fact, there is one already made with metal gears. the problem with this is the resistance transferred to the gears would resist the impact and transfer it to the motor shaft. The motor shaft without a doubt would withstand the impact and cause the motor to overheat and burn.

worse case scenario it is always best to replace those gears and bearings than replacing a motor along with all the other mentioned parts.

Nothing last forever and if you hear grinding noise or feel the crb is not working right anymore, It is time to stop using it and have it looked at or inspect it yourselves. replace the components that are causing trouble and save yourselves some cash.

my two cents.

 

[Doom]

I took mine apart and found that stuff was getting under the bearing plates. I cleaned out behind the plates and used a adhesive/sealant with some clamps and it has taken care of the problem.. I think this should be done at the factory for every new unit made.

I love this adhesive for waste tank gaskets also..
View attachment 72642

Did you use that adhesive for the CRB? Plates?

 

[Doom]

Sealing up my 10 CRB today. Good thread. Use it everyday. 6 months old.

 

[steve_64]

I started disassembling mine today. It wouldn't start yesterday until I plugged it in the kitchen. Even then it seemed weak. It was loud at first and I worried it was going to die but I really needed it to finish the job.

 

[Doom]

All cleaned up and put back together.

 

[steve_64]

looks like I'll be needing some parts. I can't get all the screws out,gonna have to grind them off.

 

[steve_64]

So are there any crbs that will hold up to my abuse? Now that I've used one I " need" one.

I understand it's the way I'm using mine and not maintaining it that's caused this so knowing that is there one anyone recommends? I need to replace this right away.

 

[Doom]

My next CRB will be a 15inch brushpro.

 

[Cleanworks]

So are there any crbs that will hold up to my abuse? Now that I've used one I " need" one.

I understand it's the way I'm using mine and not maintaining it that's caused this so knowing that is there one anyone recommends? I need to replace this right away.

No, all equipment has to be cleaned and maintained. You have a choice, maintain it and keep for a while or don't maintain it and replace it when it breaks. It's like the old Fram oil filter commercials, "pay me now or pay me later". The later is always more expensive.

 

[Able 1]

If you would just clean it good once a day, you would be fine..

 

[Able 1]

Every job is over kill imo..

 

[Doom]

Dependent on job as well. But it takes two minutes to vacuum it out on site with TM on the worst of them. Usually clean mine out the following day. Part of my morning ritual.

 

[Able 1]

No, all equipment has to be cleaned and maintained. You have a choice, maintain it and keep for a while or don't maintain it and replace it when it breaks. It's like the old Fram oil filter commercials, "pay me now or pay me later". The later is always more expensive.

Fram should be the last to make that claim.. Those filters are complete garbage!

 

[Doom]

Use this for my Apex. Any good? Ordered it from our local tractor dealer. Our TM store uses the Fram....loud exhale...