Suction/Lift Adjustment

lesterj2

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
444
OK first off when I have the machine running... And I plug off the suction of the vac hose my Panel Gauge says 14" lift...
But when I have it connected to the end of the wand and on the ground the panel gauge reads 5" of lift...

Is there a way to improve the suction..
 

John Watson

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
2,885
Yup!!! Look in the "High Performance Room" I did a CCINW chapter meeting on it and it's all there.
 

gasaxe

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
321
locate the vaccum relief valve. It will be somewhere in the vaccum pipe between the blower and the tank or on the tank. It should be a spring loaded device with the ability to adjust the spring tension tighter which will increase the lift..
 

Able 1

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
6,469
Location
Wi
Name
Keith
If you plug it at the tm or if its at the end of your hose run it should read the same and that valve should open at 14 either way.

unless you are losing alot of air somewhere.

jmo

Keith
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,856
Location
California
Name
Shawn Forsythe
Make sure you understand that your blower and the wastetank on your machine are designed with certain limits. The lift limit on a blower is such that it will not overheat and distort the structure, leading to failure. As well, your waste recovery tank has a structural limit that when lift is maintained under this limitation, collapse or structural damage will not occur.

For most equipment on the market, the limitation is around 14"-15", and is maintained through the proper setting of your vac relief valve. Your's is set at 14" and may be appropriate for your blower and wastetank.

That is not to say that the entire setup is optimal. First of all, typical spring loaded vac relief valves leak quite a bit of CFM at partial lift settings. During cleaning, it is at these partial lift settings that air flow should be conserved through the wand, and not through the vac relief valve, if possible. On most valves, you cant do much other than keep the valve poppet lubricated, so the action will be smooth. Some valves utilize a quality construction, with a bushed poppet that reduces friction, allowing the spring to maintain a precise, reliable setting. However, partial opening at partial lift settings is an inevitability. That is unless you use a vac relief valve, specifically designed to retard or eliminate creep leaking. An example of this type of valve is the Bayco, or Kunkle valve used by some independent cleaners, and a couple of manufacturers (MasterBleand, Powerclean).

The second figure you tested, was the "open flow" vac reading. In actuality, the desired reading is as low as possible. This is because this figure generally represents the amount of restriction in the vacuum side of the blower, between the blower and the exit orifice of the wastetank. 5" is not a 'bad" reading, but it could be better. make sure your vacuum filter is not impeded by debris, which would raise the amount of restriction, and thus the reading.

You will notice, that as you add vacuum hose, and then a wand, your open flow reading will rise as you add more and more restriction. If you have a Kunkle or Bayco type of relief valve , the amount of CFM loss is negligible, but you still want to reduce the restrictions due to hose or wand as much as possible to permit a greater disparity once the final orifice size is introduced. The final orifice size is the amount of restriction that then exists when the wand contacts the carpet.

This wand-carpet interface is one of the most important aspects to maximizing extraction capability. Ideally, you want to have the air moving across the fibers and nearest the wand opening to have the greatest velocity with what the blower is able to generate. velocity of the air gives it the motive force to move or conduct water and soil off the fiber, and into the wand plenum(head). If you have done all you can to reduce restriction from the blower to the wand plenum, and you you have also reduced or eliminated the inefficiencies of a stock relief valve that leaks at partial lift, then all that is left is to maximize the air velocity at the wand-carpet interface with a good wand lip design.

Wand lip design is woefully simple in a traditional wand. The plenum is narrowed to a simple slit to raise the velocity as it enters the narrowed opening. However, there has been relatively recent advances in tuning the openings of wands to create an even better wand-carpet interface. This is accomplished with an attached wand orifice device (a glide) that does two things. First, it optimizes the profile of the wand contact point(s), such that the wand oping is buried deeper into the pile, with the same or less exertion of the operator. this done by virtue of the rounded tip profile of the glide, and a low-friction material (teflon). The glide also further narrows the slit orifice either into short variated slots, or round holes. The latter having a greater influence on actual velocity-motive force.
 

XTREME1

RIP
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
9,681
Location
Ma
Name
Greg Crowley
machine no hose 3
machine 50ft 7
machine 100 11
machine 150 12.5
machine 200 14
machine 250ft 14.5
 

lesterj2

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
444
which is the relief valve...
if its "B" i checked it today and it has no filter inside...

1003933cz3.jpg
 

XTREME1

RIP
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
9,681
Location
Ma
Name
Greg Crowley
you need a top view. there is an adjustable nut(not you) on the end of a spring
 

lesterj2

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
444
Matt Murdock said:
machine no hose 3
machine 50ft 7
machine 100 11
machine 150 12.5
machine 200 14
machine 250ft 14.5
Could you explain the numbers... it has a adjustable nut on the back of item B

scratchheadew7.gif
 

Able 1

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
6,469
Location
Wi
Name
Keith
all tm are different mine now shows 1 or 2 when nothing is connected.

Plug it at the tm and listen for the hiss you can find it that way too.
 

lesterj2

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
444
Able 1 said:
all tm are different mine now shows 1 or 2 when nothing is connected.

Plug it at the tm and listen for the hiss you can find it that way too.
when you say hissing are you refering to leaky suction hoses...
 

Brian R

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,945
Location
Little Elm, TX
Name
Brian Robison
Dude, if it reads 14 when you plug it and it stays there..you are fine.
If it sucks the hell out of your hand...you are fine.

The point of the relief valve is so the waste tank doesn't implode when you close off the end of the hose...know what I mean?

hense the name "relief" valve
 

lesterj2

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
444
Brian Robison said:
Dude, if it reads 14 when you plug it and it stays there..you are fine.
If it sucks the hell out of your hand...you are fine.

The point of the relief valve is so the waste tank doesn't implode when you close off the end of the hose...know what I mean?

hense the name "relief" valve
ok thats fine and I understand that but why does it read 5" when i place the wand on the carpet...
 

XTREME1

RIP
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
9,681
Location
Ma
Name
Greg Crowley
it should read higher with the wand to the carpet. I have an idea. Bring it in for service
 

Brian R

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,945
Location
Little Elm, TX
Name
Brian Robison
lesterj2 said:
Brian Robison said:
Dude, if it reads 14 when you plug it and it stays there..you are fine.
If it sucks the hell out of your hand...you are fine.

The point of the relief valve is so the waste tank doesn't implode when you close off the end of the hose...know what I mean?

hense the name "relief" valve
ok thats fine and I understand that but why does it read 5" when i place the wand on the carpet...

If it's a green glide at the end you will get lower hg I am right around 10 when opperating.
once the water starts moving through the hose the hg will go up...when there is too much in the hose the relief valve opens and save your tank until the lines clear a little. It will then close back off giving you suction again.

If it's sucking the floor and bringing the hg meter up to 14 before you start cleaning you will not be moving any water back to your tank because it will be like closing off the hose with your hand.
 

Dolly Llama

Number 5
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
30,566
Location
North East Ohio
Name
Larry Capitoni
lesterj2 said:
OK first off when I have the machine running... And I plug off the suction of the vac hose my Panel Gauge says 14" lift...
But when I have it connected to the end of the wand and on the ground the panel gauge reads 5" of lift...

Is there a way to improve the suction..

yea, buy some more ducK tape, find the air leaks in your hoses and apply the Crawfordville chrome


..L.T.A.
 

Brian R

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,945
Location
Little Elm, TX
Name
Brian Robison
meAt said:
lesterj2 said:
OK first off when I have the machine running... And I plug off the suction of the vac hose my Panel Gauge says 14" lift...
But when I have it connected to the end of the wand and on the ground the panel gauge reads 5" of lift...

Is there a way to improve the suction..

yea, buy some more ducK tape, find the air leaks in your hoses and apply the Crawfordville chrome


..L.T.A.

That doesn't make sense, if he plugs and it goes to 14, he has no leaks.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,856
Location
California
Name
Shawn Forsythe
Lester,

The red arrow points to the vac relief valve on this White Magic waste tank. It is opposite the hose connection, as shown on your photo.
t9zeic.jpg


Matt Murdock's numbers refer to vac readings as successive amounts of restriction are added to the machine. The lesser restrictive the addition, the less the rise in vac level. Hence, the reason some users will opt to use larger than stock vacuum hose (i.e. 2.5" vac hose).
 

lesterj2

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
444
yeah i have that same type screw thing on the back of my box. so if i played with it... maybe it should make better performance with the wand suction...
 

Brian R

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,945
Location
Little Elm, TX
Name
Brian Robison
lesterj2 said:
yeah i have that same type screw thing on the back of my box. so if i played with it... maybe it should make better performance with the wand suction...


Careful bro.
If you make that thing too tight it wil screw up your whole rig.
 

Able 1

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
6,469
Location
Wi
Name
Keith
Instead of checking when the wand is on the floor run out the same amount of hose and plug the end. See what you get then.

Keith
 

gasaxe

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
321
Shawn Forsythe said:
Lester,

The red arrow points to the vac relief valve on this White Magic waste tank. It is opposite the hose connection, as shown on your photo.
t9zeic.jpg


Matt Murdock's numbers refer to vac readings as successive amounts of restriction are added to the machine. The lesser restrictive the addition, the less the rise in vac level. Hence, the reason some users will opt to use larger than stock vacuum hose (i.e. 2.5" vac hose).



with the unit running at slower speed 1500 rpms or so... cap off the vaccum outlet (where you hook up your hose) listen for air leaks at connections,tank lid seal, and vac relief. If there is substantial amount of air leaking at the vac relief try pulling the vac relief closed by hand. again listening for other air leaks the less air leaks the more the motor will load down... DO NOT OPERATE THIS WAY FOR EXTENDED PERIOD !!!! 5 mins or so max.. once you have ALL of the vac leaks corrected put 100 ft of hose on and your wand. place it on the carpet and assure that you have no air leaks between the carpet and the unit. Now set the vac relief where you pulling 14" of hg with the unit running at max rpm..
If i were you i would look to install a inexpensive bbq thermometer in the blower exhaust piping to keep check on the blower exhaust temps (250 deg is what most roots/dresser pumps can run)
 

Able 1

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
6,469
Location
Wi
Name
Keith
Dude! he capped it at the TM do you think there might be problems from there to the wand?

As it looked to me this stuff aint new! jmo

Keith
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom