Wall to Wall Wool.

[ACE]

How do you charge, What do you look for when you preinspect. And how do you clean (PSI, Heat, chemicals).
I have a job in a couple of weeks that has some w2ww. I plan on looking at how it’s manufactured and installed. I might decline to clean if it’s woven.

About 10 years ago I show up to a job on a Saturday morning. The customer did not say, buy the way this is a wool carpet and I did not think to ask test or know by looking at it. I start prespraying with Procyon (non buffered PH 9.5). Before I even plug in the wand the carpet starts to shrink and pull off every tack strip, every seam rips open. I sent an installer friend over to take a look. He tells her the carpet was not properly installed because the seams were not sewn. That got the company I was working with off the hook and I never heard anything more about it. I am now armed with a lot more knowledge about cleaning wool, but to this day I really have no idea how I could have cleaned that carpet with anything but maybe dry foam and not had the same horrible result.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The smell of wool gives it away if you don't recognize it by its appearance.

The wool fiber doesn't shrink. It's the JUTE BACKING that shrinks.

When I first started cleaning, back in the Stone Age, most carpets had jute backing, even if nylon or other manmade face fibers. Thus they were ALL subject to shrinking, and a LOT of carpets did so.

However the more expensive WOOL carpets always had a more dense weave of jute backing that was even MORE likely to shrink, dragging tack strips out of the floor and opening seams.

Double tack strip, and as noted sewn seams were a help.

Three things with wool installed in the USA:

1. Don't prespray
2. Don't get the backing wet.
3. Always inspect for construction and installation detail

I bought my first OP machine for the Law Library at Murray State, and still held my breath. Turned out beautiful.

 

[Johnny]

I clean at least three wtw wools regularly. Prespray with Judson O2 or CTI TLC and acid rinse about 180 degrees. Never a problem. Maybe I'm just lucky.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I clean at least three wtw wools regularly. Prespray with Judson O2 or CTI TLC and acid rinse about 180 degrees. Never a problem. Maybe I'm just lucky.

You are lucky.

They were likely made more recently without the JUTE backing I described. If, after inspection as I noted above, I find it's not jute-backed I clean normally, with one difference:

1. Always deodorize from the first room on to head off the "wet dog" smell.

 

[GeneMiller]

i always pull up a corner so i can check for jute. i clean quite a bit and i see a lot where it has some sort of solid glue looking back. i love it because you can clean away. if it is jute or even worse has jute running through the face fiber as part of the look i tell them it will shrink and maybe ruin it. most clean anyways. I always pre-spray with bridge point fabric pre-spray and in the light areas sometimes just a dry vac over will leave it looking fine. i have shrunk a couple with the jute in the face fiber but never got any grief .
gene

 

[renegade_cowboy]

I just cleaned a whole house with new wall to wall wool.. I used trashed green with a fresh water rinse and charged my usual $14.99 per room.

 

[Mikey P]

yeah, but not all wools smell..




why is that?

 

[roro]

When I started in the 1980'swool carpet was the norm - occasionally we might strike a synthetic.
Virtually all wool had jute backing and even today it is the norm.

Please ignore Lee's advice about pre-spraying - it is simply incorrect.

What you need to avoid is getting the backing wet so if you are using a powersprayer turn the pressure down or do real fast passes.
Wool is not a solid blob of plastic so give it at least ten minutes dwell time.

Except during winter, or on very wet days, we will normally do single pass wanding at about 450 psi, adjusting the speed of the pass to the degree of soiling. We have gone up to 600 psi especially with the Drymaster.
We tell our customers to expect a minimum dry time of 3 hours in ideal conditions but that it may be overnight/ or about 24 hours.

roro

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Ross my comment was about wool carpet installed in the USA, and I said why.

Do not prespray until you inspect and confirm what its backing is and how it's installed.

As noted by another in this thread, and confirmed by carpets I've seen, just prespraying a fragile installation will trigger shrinkage.

In OZ and NZ they have much more experience and expertise with wool, and a very high percentage of it. I knew my comments would trigger laughter from down under.

 

[hogjowl]

I know what Lee is saying. I read it all over the boards back in the 90's, but I have never personally experienced it. Cleaning wool for me has never been a problem. I have presprayed it just like every other carpet and never had it shrink on me.

Yeah, I know ... I'm lucky.

Or, maybe I just never got in the habit of soaking capets when I prespray.

 

[Mikey P]

I know what Lee is saying. I read it all over the boards back in the 90's, but I have never personally experienced it. Cleaning wool for me has never been a problem. I have presprayed it just like every other carpet and never had it shrink on me.

Yeah, I know ... I'm lucky.

Or, maybe I just never got in the habit of soaking capets when I prespray.

X2

 

[ACE]

Thanks.

I’m hoping its tufted carpet. Carpet insulations in the USA are very poor quality in general .
I’m sure seams on woven wool almost never get sewn together.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Again, it's the jute backing that shrinks, NOT the WOOL. Most of the installations that would shrink have already done so. The ones most likely were installed from about 1965 on by installers who treated these carpets just like others they worked with. While earlier wall to wall installations were securely tacked with sewn seam (very labor intensive), the newer system of tackless strip and seaming tape were not initially adequate for the jute backings with extra strands each way and much stronger "shrink power".

I realize that most of you guys were born too late to have the "shrink" experience, but it can happen. I've seen it too many times, though not recently....fortunately.

One local company cleaned the County Courthouse, ruined the carpets, and went out of business over it. (1978)

 

[roro]

I realize that most of you guys were born too late to have the "shrink" experience, but it can happen. I've seen it too many times, though not recently....fortunately.

I hadn't realised you had been overwetting for quite so looooooooooooong.
You were probably born too late Lee to have the no wall to wall experience. Why we used to have floor coverings called Bisonia Squares back in the days of yore. They were so darned classy they even had them in the White House.

roro

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Sheep seem to hold up well in the rain.

:-) Actually cleaned 3 wool rugs today, on location, with the truckmount. NO problem. The only problem is installation, with certain backings on w2w jobs.

At over $80 sqyd there is very little installed in most residential here.

 

[ruff]

I clean plenty of wool. Not a problem. I use a mild pre-sparay if needed, easy on the agitation and follow with a 'WoolSafe' rinse. Cleans beautifully.

My experience is that the issues with shrinkage and ripping wool carpets is only with woven (Wilton, Axminster, etc.) and not with tufted wool. The jute weft is the issue. Jute in tufted carpets, unless you really soak it (which is bad technique to begin with) does not shrink, it may brown if deteriorated or if it was over wet, though.

If in doubt as to construction, and you want to reduce the chance of damage (and anxiety), clean on the pull and make sure to remove excess moisture. It will not work on heavily soiled carpets, but works o.k. with the ones that are not very soiled.

 

[Jim Bethel]

I knew my comments would trigger laughter from down under.

I have never disagreed with ANYTHING I have ever seen you type on any forum board......until now. But I do it while laughing as you suggested But we still like ya mate!

We have idiot carpet layers over here that have little experience as well - just as I am sure you have over there. While in the USA, there is less percentage of wool compared to NZ and OZ, there is still a lot more square feet of wool carpet in the USA due to the overall size of your marketplace. Wool isn't something that every one needs to fear.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I realize there is A LOT of misinformation on the Internet about this...both ways. That was never the source of my experience with this.

I also realize that this is largely a problem of the past, except for perhaps a few as yet undiscovered installations that WILL bite someone.

If you've never seen it, it "never happened"....like the skunk.

 

[Larry Cobb]

My experience is that the issues with shrinkage and ripping wool carpets is only with woven (Wilton, Axminster, etc.) and not with tufted wool. The jute weft is the issue. Jute, unless you really soak it (which is bad technique to begin with) does not shrink, it may brown if deteriorated or if it was over wet, though.

Ofer has mentioned the critical factor . . .

It is the woven wools that can shrink the most.

Another reason to check the backing.

I remember one that shrunk several inches in one dimension,

could not be power-stretched back,

and had to be patched to make up the loss.

Larry

P.S. We always used a powder reducing agent to brighten up the wool jobs.

 

[Harry Myers]

somewhat amus

 

[Padden McFadden]

I have some wall to wall wool to do tomarrow, first one in years. You guys got me all freaked out. How do I know if it is a jute backing? I don't want to shrivel shrink the flip out of it.

 

[Luis Gomez]

I have some wall to wall wool to do tomarrow, first one in years. You guys got me all freaked out. How do I know if it is a jute backing? I don't want to shrivel shrink the flip out of it.

Pull up (disengage the carpet) the corner and look at the backing. If it brown you have jute.
Also ask the customer the age of the carpet if it is older then 20 yrs it is probably jute.
Luis

 

[Lee Stockwell]

If it has floor hvac registers you can pull a cover off and see the backing without pulling it up. Also if you see bad seams, gapped or very visible, you can suspect a bad one. Around the edges, pulled back on larger rooms.

If the carpet looks as old as me...it may be a problem.

 

[ACE]

What’s age got to do with it?
A new woven wool carpet still has a cotton or jute base yarn that’s going to shrink and Likely was not swen at the seams.

OP cleaning would be safer, but there is still a danger if it's woven (no secondary backing).

I’m happy for the guys that have never had a problem with wool because you cannot imagine the absolute horror from the sound of seams ripping and tack strips popping out.

 

[sam miller]

I know what Lee is saying. I read it all over the boards back in the 90's, but I have never personally experienced it. Cleaning wool for me has never been a problem. I have presprayed it just like every other carpet and never had it shrink on me.

Yeah, I know ... I'm lucky.

Or, maybe I just never got in the habit of soaking capets when I prespray.

X2

x3

 

[Harry Myers]

What’s age got to do with it?
A new woven wool carpet still has a cotton or jute base yarn that’s going to shrink and Likely was not swen at the seams.

OP cleaning would be safer, but there is still a danger if it's woven (no secondary backing).

I’m happy for the guys that have never had a problem with wool because you cannot imagine the absolute horror from the sound of seams ripping and tack strips popping out.

Not all wool wovens need to be hand sewed.

 

[rwcarpet]

How do you charge, What do you look for when you preinspect. And how do you clean (PSI, Heat, chemicals).
I have a job in a couple of weeks that has some w2ww. I plan on looking at how it’s manufactured and installed. I might decline to clean if it’s woven.

About 10 years ago I show up to a job on a Saturday morning. The customer did not say, buy the way this is a wool carpet and I did not think to ask test or know by looking at it. I start prespraying with Procyon (non buffered PH 9.5). Before I even plug in the wand the carpet starts to shrink and pull off every tack strip, every seam rips open. I sent an installer friend over to take a look. He tells her the carpet was not properly installed because the seams were not sewn. That got the company I was working with off the hook and I never heard anything more about it. I am now armed with a lot more knowledge about cleaning wool, but to this day I really have no idea how I could have cleaned that carpet with anything but maybe dry foam and not had the same horrible result.

My first "wool" experience was about 33 years ago. We just got the new Turbo Matic for the guy I was working for, and went to a high end home to clean w2w wool carpet. Everything was going well, until we checked the first area we cleaned. The carpet was pulling the tack strip right out of sub floor. By then, it was too late. We sent an installer to re-install the carpet, but he had a problem because..........the home owner had removed a wall between 2 rooms, had this wool carpet sewn together, and then re-stretched the extra 4 inches to cover the whole new room, but failed to tell us about the re-install.

Other than that......never have a wool problem. Easy on the moisture, plenty of vac and airmoving should make cleaning simple. But I say it goes back to the proper installation.

 

[ruff]

How do you charge, What do you look for when you preinspect. And how do you clean (PSI, Heat, chemicals).
I have a job in a couple of weeks that has some w2ww. I plan on looking at how it’s manufactured and installed. I might decline to clean if it’s woven.


It is really simple: All you have to do is make sure the moisture does not reach the jute of a woven carpet. End of story.
(Tufted jute will not cause shrinkage (unless you really over wet and than you'll also have to deal with browning.) If it's woven (In adition to potential shrinkage, it is also the weft jute that expands and pulls on the weave which causes tension.)

Say it's woven. So?

1)Don't pre- spray (most pre-sprays have a penetrating agents that make it easier for them to go deeper (both the pre=spray and the rinsing agent that you rinse with.) Though contrary to the common myth, carpets can be cleaned fairly well without a pre-spray.
2) If you are really nervous: Reduce psi to 200 or so (You can even go lower). Wet clean on the pull only. Make sure that each stroke you don't leave moisture that was not picked up at the end of the stroke. Easy (light) on the over laps (horizontal and vertical). Air movers.
3) Charge accordingly.
4) Enjoy
.

My first "wool" experience was about 33 years ago.
It is posts like this, Robert, that makes me feel like a spring chicken all over again
And of course every post by the 'grand daddy of clean' (no, I am not talking about you Ken,) I am talking about someone that already forgot more about carpet cleaning than I never knew- It's Lee.


Other than that......never have a wool problem. Easy on the moisture, plenty of vac and airmoving should make cleaning simple. But I say it goes back to the proper installation.

 

[ACE]

It turned out to be tightly woven. There was no chance of HWE this carpet without soaking the base yarn. I ended up pad caping. It worked great. 8)