Bob Pruitt
Member
So what is the smallest size for the better made CRB's ? Smallest Pro Version I guess. I don't see how I could use a 10 inch now that I know it will fall apart if I'm not super careful...
10" CRB Sale
- Thread starter encapman
- Start date
Mikey P
Administrator
oh good lord...
Gear box..
While not sealed I just can't see pre spray getting in there unless a careless tech used a HF to wash it down at the end of the job/day
Only open areas I can see where possible splashing could get in but all the guts and motor are up high, so again, the corrosive liquid would have to be sprayed in there, while the machine was upside down..
Arrows pointing to areas where liquids could get in.. But not during cleaning...
So I applied this stuff to the two areas that COULD potentially cause an issue, if you were using the tool to scrub walls or ceilings..
Reg and or Steve can you point out were you saw the corrosion?
Gear box..
While not sealed I just can't see pre spray getting in there unless a careless tech used a HF to wash it down at the end of the job/day
Only open areas I can see where possible splashing could get in but all the guts and motor are up high, so again, the corrosive liquid would have to be sprayed in there, while the machine was upside down..
Arrows pointing to areas where liquids could get in.. But not during cleaning...
So I applied this stuff to the two areas that COULD potentially cause an issue, if you were using the tool to scrub walls or ceilings..
Reg and or Steve can you point out were you saw the corrosion?
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encapman
Member
No, the 10" machine doesn't require that you're "super careful". A little bit of practical maintenance to the machine is definitely beneficial; but it's not excessive. These machines have a very solid track record! Whittaker has sold the TM models of these Rotowash built machines from Austria for decades, and they've been solid work horses. A number of folks on this forum have been using them for a long time too, and can relate their experience regarding the machine's quality. The thing that caused a problem with this particular machine is that salt residue worked its way inside the housing so corrosion damaged the steel surfaces. This is not something we're normally seeing with the units that are in the market. In fact it's the first time I've ever heard of this. So I don't think the sky is falling. These machines normally provide years of service. Instead this seems to be isolated to the usage of one particular detergent.
dgardner
Moderator
There are ball bearings here (four places). They are covered by metal shields, but they are just shields, not seals. Under the right circumstances, say if solution had accumulated between the shield and the bearing inside, and then you pressure-rinsed the brushes, I could see how the chemical could be driven inside the bearing(s), eventually corroding them and eventually seizing, in turn causing gear failure. These are the areas pointed out by our intrepid mechanic where failure occurred, I believe:
dgardner
Moderator
regarossa
Member
Your machine looks like it's been taken care of Mike. Gears look fine and I see no evidence of any corrosion. Keep doing whatever your doing
There are things that employees do to make their life simple (in their mind) when the boss is not around that often do not make sense.
This appears to be an isolated incident.
I would look closely at the tech's procedures that was using this machine all the time. He maybe has a different procedure like spraying and agitating at the same time that gets a lot more chemical on his machine.
I had an employee that was having tires blow up on him at least a couple times a week. As loud as 45 acp going off in a small room, it hurts. It turns out he did not know how to read the gauge and was putting 10 atmospheres in the tires instead of 100 pounds. All of us were using the same compressor and gauge--only he was having tires blow often.
This appears to be an isolated incident.
I would look closely at the tech's procedures that was using this machine all the time. He maybe has a different procedure like spraying and agitating at the same time that gets a lot more chemical on his machine.
I had an employee that was having tires blow up on him at least a couple times a week. As loud as 45 acp going off in a small room, it hurts. It turns out he did not know how to read the gauge and was putting 10 atmospheres in the tires instead of 100 pounds. All of us were using the same compressor and gauge--only he was having tires blow often.
Mikey P
Administrator
Fyi
STPP is used in many pre sprays in this industry, not just Procyon.
It's a great natural surfactant for lightly soiled carpets of all types.
I certainly won't stop using it.
STPP is used in many pre sprays in this industry, not just Procyon.
It's a great natural surfactant for lightly soiled carpets of all types.
I certainly won't stop using it.
Zee
Supportive Member
It also helps to push in the tiny ball/spring on the rod and spray that spot a little.
Mark Saiger
Mr Happy!
Pioneer Floorcare
Member
Are the bearings not sealed bearings?!
Cleanworks
Moderator
everything we use is corrosive, acids, alkalines, salts. Maintenance is the key, not just wiping down things, but washing and drying them.
The classic belief that a rubber/plastic washer rubbing against another surface gives you a seal. In protected areas they work ok but where these bearings are located you could double seal them and still in time you would get penetration with the chemicals these tools are sloshing around in. Almost a better way to do it is leave an open bearing and spray it down with a heavy lube regularly. WD 40 is great for keeping a bit of a coat on a metal surface but will penetrate through "sealed" bearings and break down the grease.
But one OCD guy that loves to post videos that uses the heck out of his 10" machine and gets them to last over 5 years suggests that is the direction I would go. Regular hits with WD 40.
encapman
Member
Rick Imby, like you, I've spent many years working with and riding bicycles. I worked in several bike shops as a mechanic and as a store manager when I was young. And like you, I understand a little about bearings, seals, and WD40. It's all just basic mechanical stuff. What you said is spot on - WD40 will dissolve grease. It will penetrate and liquify bearing grease; even sealed bearings. WD40 is great for displacing moisture, coating metal surfaces, and providing a lightweight lubricant. But it should never be exposed to bearings.
Mikey P
Administrator
Heck of a thread you started here Rick...
I know a lot of motorcyclists who use WD as chain lube..
I know a lot of motorcyclists who use WD as chain lube..
encapman
Member
That would be a lightweight choice for a chain lube. Chain lube is normally heavier than that. Cable lubrication on a motorcycle or bicycle with WD40 would be fine. Lubricating break calipers or derailleurs on a bicycle with WD40 is great. It's great for squeaky hinges. I've even used it to improve connections on electrical contacts. But WD40 is a lightweight lubricant. Chains and bearings require a heavier lube than what WD40 can provide IMHO.
P.S. It's also excellent for removing adhesives - even in carpet, (but total removal of the WD40 from the fiber is required after using it).
realclean
Member
So that bearing is not replaceable?
What should be the correct cleaning procedure for this unit?
I too would have a problem with something that cost as much as that unit does and would expect it to be tougher then that.
What should be the correct cleaning procedure for this unit?
I too would have a problem with something that cost as much as that unit does and would expect it to be tougher then that.
dgardner
Moderator
I like Mikey's idea of using WD40 to prevent the axles from getting stuck, but agree with Rick that soaking the bearing with it could wash out the grease and shorten the bearing life. Instead of spraying the bearing area I would spray the axle itself. That way you get a film of WD between the axle and the bore it runs in without the danger of soaking the bearing.
Back in the late 70's I worked in a shop and was responsible for maintaining the tools and machinery, including a big old steam cleaner. The boiler feed pump used an exposed cam and crankshaft run at low speed. Chug, chug, chug.... each time injecting water into the boiler. The crank used a typical sealed radial ball bearing like we are talking about, although it was larger in diameter, maybe 2" OD. It had run for almost a year, the whole time I had been there, without issues. One day the bearing failed and I replaced it. A week later it failed again. Another week, and if failed yet again. I replaced that stupid bearing 5 or 6 times until I figured out the issue. After the first failure, the machine operator decided that it needed to be "lubed" each day, so every morning before he started the machine up he would squirt WD40 at the bearing. Good grief. After I confiscated his can of WD the failures stopped.
Bearings depend on a "wedge" of lubricant between the contact surfaces (think surfer riding a wave or a car hydroplaning over a flooded road). At low speeds it takes a very thick lubricant, such as grease, to maintain this wedge. As the speeds increase the lubricant can be thinner (oil) to maintain the wedge, and is used because the grease would run too hot at those speeds. But many greased bearings are good to over 20,000 rpm, and when the speeds increase to the point that oil is used it's still way thicker than WD40. At the low speeds we are talking about here, WD40 is way too thin to maintain the wedge inside the bearing. You have metal-to-metal contact, and the bearing won't last as long as it should.
It may be fine for cycle chains, but for sealed ball bearings, not so much.
Back in the late 70's I worked in a shop and was responsible for maintaining the tools and machinery, including a big old steam cleaner. The boiler feed pump used an exposed cam and crankshaft run at low speed. Chug, chug, chug.... each time injecting water into the boiler. The crank used a typical sealed radial ball bearing like we are talking about, although it was larger in diameter, maybe 2" OD. It had run for almost a year, the whole time I had been there, without issues. One day the bearing failed and I replaced it. A week later it failed again. Another week, and if failed yet again. I replaced that stupid bearing 5 or 6 times until I figured out the issue. After the first failure, the machine operator decided that it needed to be "lubed" each day, so every morning before he started the machine up he would squirt WD40 at the bearing. Good grief. After I confiscated his can of WD the failures stopped.
Bearings depend on a "wedge" of lubricant between the contact surfaces (think surfer riding a wave or a car hydroplaning over a flooded road). At low speeds it takes a very thick lubricant, such as grease, to maintain this wedge. As the speeds increase the lubricant can be thinner (oil) to maintain the wedge, and is used because the grease would run too hot at those speeds. But many greased bearings are good to over 20,000 rpm, and when the speeds increase to the point that oil is used it's still way thicker than WD40. At the low speeds we are talking about here, WD40 is way too thin to maintain the wedge inside the bearing. You have metal-to-metal contact, and the bearing won't last as long as it should.
It may be fine for cycle chains, but for sealed ball bearings, not so much.
dgardner
Moderator
I'm pretty sure the bearing is replaceable.
regarossa
Member
Yes the bearing is replaceable. In this case the bearings could not be extracted from the side plate, which then caused the entire side plate to be replaced. Rarely does this occur but the corrosion was such that the bearings would not come out. (And we have many tricks to make a bearing give up the struggle)
So Dan,
Thank you a ton, I have never heard the Wedge lube theory---absolutely awesome.
Mikey, Motorcycle vs Bicycle chain lube is exactly as Dan said. The lube for motorcycles is much thicker to stay on the chain at higher speed and to have a thicker Wedge.
I would only use WD on a bicycle or motorcycle chain I was about to replace to get rid of the squeak so I could ride it back to the shop.
WD displaces water AND the lube that is already there.
Dirt motorcyclists seem to be the most common users of WD on their bike chain as a lot of them use WD to clean the outside of their dirty bikes. ---horrible to use WD on a bike chain.
Chain technology has been focused on in the bicycle industry because we are working with 1/20 th of a horsepower and trying to go as fast as possible with tiny energy input.
The chain is far and away THE most efficient method of transferring energy. But they wear themselves and the gears they run on rapidly. The stretch is easy to measure in a bicycle chain and once the chain stretches a little bit they wear the gears rapidly. Especially small gears--the smaller ones in back and the smaller ones up front.
Motorcyclists get away with bad chain care because energy loss is not a problem, you are not moving the chain from cog to cog regularly like on a bike.
I know this is too long a post for Bama Hogwarts to read..
Thank you a ton, I have never heard the Wedge lube theory---absolutely awesome.
Mikey, Motorcycle vs Bicycle chain lube is exactly as Dan said. The lube for motorcycles is much thicker to stay on the chain at higher speed and to have a thicker Wedge.
I would only use WD on a bicycle or motorcycle chain I was about to replace to get rid of the squeak so I could ride it back to the shop.
WD displaces water AND the lube that is already there.
Dirt motorcyclists seem to be the most common users of WD on their bike chain as a lot of them use WD to clean the outside of their dirty bikes. ---horrible to use WD on a bike chain.
Chain technology has been focused on in the bicycle industry because we are working with 1/20 th of a horsepower and trying to go as fast as possible with tiny energy input.
The chain is far and away THE most efficient method of transferring energy. But they wear themselves and the gears they run on rapidly. The stretch is easy to measure in a bicycle chain and once the chain stretches a little bit they wear the gears rapidly. Especially small gears--the smaller ones in back and the smaller ones up front.
Motorcyclists get away with bad chain care because energy loss is not a problem, you are not moving the chain from cog to cog regularly like on a bike.
I know this is too long a post for Bama Hogwarts to read..
Mikey P
Administrator
So it was just the brush roll axle bearings that failed on Steve's unit?
I wish you and he would have told me that.
There aint diddly one can do about getting pre spray in there..
I wonder how The Little Ivan is set up in that area... Might need Zerks..
I wish you and he would have told me that.
There aint diddly one can do about getting pre spray in there..
I wonder how The Little Ivan is set up in that area... Might need Zerks..
Mikey P
Administrator
I got 34k out if a chain and rear sprocket on a road bike
Re applied every 400 miles or so
Or the little Ivan may have multiple seals. There should not be any Pressure to displace the grease only splashed on salts.
A lot of "Clean Freaks" use WD as a lube because what little lube (WD is mainly penetrant) left on the chain does not collect dirt like heavier lubes that are designed for motorcycle chains. I am sure with the way you use power (aggressively) you got chain stretch and cog wear faster because of the WD.
I don't know a lot about motorcycle chains but good ones have o-rings on each pin to keep the lube Wedge. I would bet WD in time will penetrate the O/X ring and create more wear.
Here is a great article on Motorcycle Chains.
http://www.biketorqueracing.co.uk/b...-chain-and-sprockets/o-ring-and-x-ring-chains
ruff
Member
Marvelous.
So for the rest of us doodlesacks that own one of these contraptions-
What should we do?
Put some grease in bearings?
Do you need to open a plate or just insert where brush pin holes are?
Will it be spun out all over the carpet?
What grease?
So for the rest of us doodlesacks that own one of these contraptions-
What should we do?
Put some grease in bearings?
Do you need to open a plate or just insert where brush pin holes are?
Will it be spun out all over the carpet?
What grease?
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Use a 175 with a brush or red pad....
lol
lol
Steve Lawrence
Member
glad you added the lol
Steve Lawrence
Member
Hey Mike,
Sorry I wasn't more proactive on the problem and repair of my unit. Just getting old and maybe a little tired of all of these everyday annoyances.
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