Encapsulation Questions

[Desk Jockey]

So correct me if I'm wrong Mr Kolton but are you saying we are carpet cleaners but we DON"T clean carpet? ig:

So we simply improve the carpets appearance and the point you are desperately attempting to make is that your preferred method improves it way way better?

 

[ruff]

Desperately wAy way gooder.

I am not a carpet cleaner. I am a soil management artist. So, please, provide me with all due respect.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Desperately wAy way gooder.

I am not a carpet cleaner. I am a soil management artist. So, please, provide me with all due respect.

 

[ruff]

Maybe I work with you on your personal appearance management.
I give you what my wife refers to as "immigrant chic".

 

[Desk Jockey]

I could use the help. This Hicspanic look can only take me so far.

 

[J Scott W]

we are not talking perfection, but degrees of soil removal. We empty (to a degree) the carpet's pollutant content and sure enough, the consumer, immediately thereafter, diligently works hard on bringing it back. Talk about job security

There's a simple test that will answer all these questions. Take a couple of 10x10 area carpets and clean each according to the recommended procedure. One will be encapsulated, the other steam cleaned. Do it a few times and then immerse both rugs in a big tub and see what comes out.

Also important: What does the left over soil and detergent residue (be it encap or anything else) do health wise to the inhabitants and what exposure do they get from airborne residue?

A few more questions

Potential health issues are frequently raised by anyone who is opposed to anything. It would take days to list all the things that might harm us. Is there any evidence that detergent residue from encapsulation would be any more or less harmful than detergents from hot water extraction?

I have often heard cleaners discuss the fact that carpet acts like a filter or sink to trap and hold a variety of soils that would otherwise be air-borne and in our breathing zone. Why expect that there will be any significnat amount of airborne residue?

If encapsulation polymers promote more efficient vacuuming in a similar way to how carpet protector polymers allow the normal vacuuming to release more soil, it could be argued that the polymer residue from encap products is a positive thing rather than a negative.

 

[Mikey P]

Was it the Egyptians or the Greeks that invented carpeting to trap dirt?



Maybe it was the Mormons, I can't recall..



Rick's 20% figure is fair industry wide, personally I think our BIG truck technique leaves less.

My fear or reluctance to perform VLM in the home is bodily fluids and over aggitation/ blooming..

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Carpets naturally trap dirt. And the agitation of walking on the carpet helps the dry dirt fall to the bottom of the carpet.. That is why the air quality of a reasonable clean carpeted house is better than a hard floor house. Kinda like dirt falling into a forest. Once if falls off the branches of the trees and makes it to the ground the wind can no longer pick it up.

Both HWE and VLM break the bond the dirt has with the carpet fiber that is visible.
With HWE a lot of that dirt gets suspended and ends up in your waste tank. The 20% of the water you leave in the carpet is dirty (probably the dirtiest water) and that will filter down into the carpet after the water evaporates.

With VLM the agitation and chemical separate the dirt from the fibers we can see. If it is a couple of days before it gets well vacuumed then the traffic agitation will allow the dirt to fall to the bottom of the carpet. There is no vacuum or surface cleaning that will pull dirt from a carpet that has filtered down to the backing.

From the rug cleaning industry where you can actually get the dirt out of the backing of the rug we have learned that you can talk all you want about deep cleaning with HWE but it is merely appearance/ surface cleaning along with VLM.

Good stuff Rick

There remains little testing to show how much soil is left in installed carpet that is cleaned with HWE.

One of the issues that will face anyone who wants to do this will be "what type of HWE will you measure?"

Small, "consumer" portable?
"Professional Portables" with wide variety of pressure and vacuum capability?
Truck mounts with recovery capability running from "just above a portable" to vacuum potential to run three wands or a thousand feet of hose?

Then, of course, there is the operator....

Nevertheless, every method leaves some dirt...usually more than we think.

You might be surprised what you'd find if you do a thorough dry vacuuming of a carpet you cleaned with HWE a few days later.

 

[steve_64]

Skin sensitivity is my biggest concern. Kids playing on the carpet can get rashes from certain products. Or so im told from some customers.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Vac Away's Encap products are said to be based from cosmetic compounds.

Although every person is different, so far we have never had a complaint in nearly a decade of Encap cleaning using a couple of different major brands.

 

[steve_64]

I have several customers who use me because of this issue. Not sure who they have used in the past but residue and crunchy carpets seems to be a concern around here.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

There has been so little testing of this process that I'm not sure how "sure" we can be regarding residues and how people react to them.

But here are some thoughts:

Its been my experience that hot water extraction can leave as much if not more residue than encap.

If a cleaner over applies traffic lane prespray, runs a heavy concentraction of detergent through their cleaning machine, and finally if the extraction process leaves too much soil and residue laden moisture in the carpet, you can have a lot of nasty stuff left in the carpet.

If HWE is done correctly, that shouldn't be the case...but that's a big "if"...

 

[dgardner]

Maybe we should be suggesting our customers use HEPA vacuums...

 

[Desk Jockey]

Yes HEPA should be stressed just from the possible allergens being released by the vacuuming process.

If you were running a particle counter in the room, the particle count spike would be startlingly high. Now that's not a real issue for most of us but someone with a asthma or allergies it could be. They NEED a HEPA vacuum or have someone vacuum while they are out of the home and come back once that particle plume settles.

 

[Old Coastie]

Yes HEPA should be stressed just from the possible allergens being released by the vacuuming process.

If you were running a particle counter in the room, the particle count spike would be startlingly high. Now that's not a real issue for most of us but someone with a asthma or allergies it could be. They NEED a HEPA vacuum or have someone vacuum while they are out of the home and come back once that particle plume settles.

Totally agree. However, the public is already breathing so much garbage, are we in fact increasing, decreasing, or simply changing the type of pollution, with any given method?

I've looked around and have yet to find definitive answers. My guess is is that we decrease and change the pollutants, both. In aggregate, we help. In reality, we provide a desired service.

Frankly, this sort of self-examination (of practises and results) speaks well of the forum.

Ymmv

 

[Richard Trevino]

And the debate goes on and on and on.



The real master at encapping is.

 

[rick imby]

oops

 

[rick imby]

@Ofer Kolton come on man---there are two questions---which method leaves more dirt and chemical where it can become airborn again-- and which method makes the carpet look the best.

Since HWE leaves more soapy muddy water in the carpet than VLM and it will wick more muddy water to the top of the carpet to evaporate spreading the dirt back up the fiber. Then the point could be made that HWE leaves the dirt in a better position to become airborn again.

Since VLM is only done by Slick operators and charlatans we know the dirt and chemical is slippery too and will slide to the bottom of the carpet and hide. Am I right @Jimmy L ?

Lets go back to the basic carpet machine the vacuum. Much of what vacuuming does is spread the carpet fibers and vibrate the dirt farther down into the carpet.... Does a beater bar make sense otherwise? The suction is so pathetic on most of these machines that the dirt that makes it into the bag really gets there by accident or is very light in weigh.

You want dirt to come out of your carpet when you vacuum? Use a central vac wand and hook it up to your fire breathing TM with real suction.

I have pulled up enough carpet in my life to realize that there is a lot of dirt that goes into the carpet and will only come out when the carpet is removed.

I have stated this a few times---VLM and HWE and vacuuming are appearance cleaning. The only way to Deep clean a carpet is to pull it up and run it through a rug cleaning operation that has the ultimate in dusting capabilities---

However living in a moderately cold climate---Western Montana---I just put new Wall to Wall carpet over the old hardwood floors in my living area---Dining, Living room with a nice thick pad to allow the carpet to flex more and let the dirt fall to the backing more easily. I love walking on new carpet with just my socks on.

 

[rick imby]

Rick's 20% figure is fair industry wide, personally I think our BIG truck technique leaves less.

My fear or reluctance to perform VLM in the home is bodily fluids and over aggitation/ blooming..

Mikey,
Your reservations about VLM in the home (while you still have them) are a bit different than a few years ago. Wasn't it Immoral a few years ago on this board to VLM residential. Brian R was so harrassed--but loved it.

 

[rick imby]

The proper application of chemicals is huge. As @Jim Pemberton mentioned many HWE guys leave a lot of chemicals in the carpet (sometimes more than VLM).

The lack of understanding and improper use of the Hydroforce is probably at the top of the list of culprits.

Also Chem Meters that are not working properly---and are rarely checked for accuracy---are also top of the list. Plugged dema valves have saved a lot of carpet cleaners significant money by allowing them to clean with only hot water... "I was wondering why the spots weren't coming up very well"

Because most VLM application of Chemicals is from a premixed solution the amount of chemical used is fully controlled. Also most of the cleaning work is being done by the chemicals and agitation so the operator must pay attention to the chems.

Spray on with a 175 or Op generally uses significantly less chemicals than Shower feed with a 175 or cimex.

Also with HWE over application of chems is not as big of a focus in the system as you have heat and vacuum and other processes to attend to.

With VLM you mixing your juice is one of very few things you have to focus on.

 

[encapman]

Rick Imby I totally agree! Dry soil recovery is pathetic with the even the best tools at our disposal. I've become a fan of the backpack vacuums without a beater bar for the very reasons you're mentioning.

I also agree that HWE doesn't necessarily assure removal of all the chemicals. With HWE you typically start with a STRONG pre-spray; strong enough that it's capable of breaking up the soil. Then that strong pre-spray mixture gets diluted down as the spray/suck method of HWE takes place. The spray/suck activity of the wand dilutes the chemical as the carpet is rinsed. At some point the HWE technician decides that he has made enough spray/suck passes with his wand and he moves on. What's left? A diluted version of the pre-spray.

Have a look at this short video. It explains what I'm saying about HWE.

 

[steve_64]

How come our vacuums fill up so fast if they dont pick anuthing up?

 

[steve_64]

Ive seen 20 plus year old carpet pulled that had very little dirt passed through to the pad. Heavy traffic too.

Vacuum vacuum vacuum it works when done properly.

 

[encapman]

I'm primarily talking about the buildup that you see occurring in CGD carpet. The carpet backing over a period of time can get totally plugged up with soil. If you'll pry apart the pile in a typical heavy traffic section of a commercial building, often times what you'll see is a dark gray or totally black load of crud down at the backing, rather than white carpet backing. There is no vacuum on the planet that can extract that deeply impacted soil. And there's no behemoth HWE system that can eliminate it either. That heavy soil load at the backing will contribute to a wicking nightmare! This is one of those situations were a good low moisture Encap cleaning can greatly reduce the chances of wicking.

 

[Mikey P]

the never ending debate.


Any real pro is going to have a truckmount
a portable
a Cimex
a OP unit
a 175
a CRB
and a vacuum cleaner or two..


and all the different wands, REs, pads, brushes and EDUCATION to do the job correctly.

 

[steve_64]

When ive seen dark spots on backing its usually from spills or tracking leaving residues. I agree encapping helps with those spots from wicking.

 

[steve_64]

Haha guess im not a "real" pro. Id need a big box truck to have all that on hand.

 

[Mikey P]

I'm no expert but I'm betting a compound cleaner and a CRB works even better on those old goopy coffee spills

 

[Mikey P]

Haha guess im not a "real" pro. Id need a big box truck to have all that on hand.

You don't need to carry it all.


I'm still deciding if I want to keep my OP or my 175 on the Transit. No room for both

 

[steve_64]

I dont always see a job before I go to clean it. I dont ask a lot of questions on the phone neither.

I find having the right products on hand to be more important than the tools for most jobs. And experience is huge too.