Hg's and there affect on dry times.

Mark Saiger

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Thanks Mark that would be awesome to hear what your dad has to say.

Just got off phone with my dad as driving home...

He had the old ChemLawn units (slide ins and direct drives he made)

They had 3.5 inch blowers (they were saying 4 inch) but Dad had the Hg set at 15-16, did some spinning of them a bit different, but he said if went over that 15-16 they lost performance due to the blower heating up too much....

So many things I have forgot about from those days....

I really need to talk with my dad about a lot of this history that could be lost :(
 

Larry Cobb

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that's OK

I only clean for a living with thousands and thousands of hours on the wand, in the real world on different carpets of every condition and fiber

I do like cOOk-outs though;)

.L.T.A.

I cleaned carpet for over 10 years . . .

but that does not change the physics of "Lift vs CFM"

More Lift at the Wand = More CFM thru the Carpet.

P.S. Mark - sounds like your dad believed in high Lift.
 

Ray Burnfield

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I cleaned carpet for over 10 years . . .

but that does not change the physics of "Lift vs CFM"

More Lift at the Wand = More CFM thru the Carpet.

P.S. Mark - sounds like your dad believed in high Lift.
If you restrict the airflow the lift will increase. It's trying harder to get the air moving.
If you completely close it off you would have no air moving.
There is a sweet spot for maximum recovery of moisture.
I'm sure that these manufactures are paying attention.
 
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Mikey, perhaps you can explain to the board why Sapphire has a MAX Vac Warning on their TM's of 13" hg.

You toured the factory, but I don't recall any photos of any test instruments at all.

Mine is set @14'' hg

Sapphire 370 SS RPM Specs - 1.jpg
 
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Had to adjust water box from overflowing...very easy fix.
SS I LOVE THE WATER BOX set up,

That is the first thing to check if you start loosing pressure. I just stick the over flow tube in my 5 gal stock jug. It takes a few jobs to get it set just right. It has to have around 16 Psi incoming water since it is a pressurized vessel.\

Here is the TSB
Sapphire 370 SS water box TSB - 1.jpg
 
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dealtimeman

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Manufactures state the lower hg to maintain warranty/longevity status without issues.

Most manufacturers also spec out open tolerance blowers for the same reasons.

I would want to see some testing but in my own (non scientific testing) observation would be that as the higher hg is achieved and wand or tool of any kind is locked onto a surface, the blower is actually processing less air hence the increase in hg/resistance on the vac system.

A simple way of seeing what I am talking about is to conduct a this operation. Run the machine up to high operating speed, observe by feeling the amount of air coming out of your machine that is processed air that went through your blower to create the vaccum.

then block off your vac port completely and you will observe a massive drop in Processed air going through the vac system.

Repeat test above but only partially block off vac port reaching max hg but without cracking relief valve and there is definitely more air being pulled harder because of the resistance or hg setting is higher.

I would like to actually do some testing to see what real world results would be.
 
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dealtimeman

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in other words in a totally sealed situation the higher hg will drop cfm greatly but in a leaky or correctly running vac system the higher hg should pull the higher cfm.


But again I am just a janitor and the tools used for the above test to measure was just my hands.

I will tell you we can defiantly tell the difference between running 14hg and running 16 hg on our trucks especially when extracting flood jobs.
 

dgardner

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The question about it is they set it I believe to 13"Hg, maybe 14"Hg even though the blower states 16" Hg.

A comment on this if I could - the limit on max vacuum is primarily a temperature limit. As you pull a higher vacuum (which is another way of saying higher pressure differential across the blower) the differential temp (and thus the outlet temp) rises. The higher temps reduce component longevity and in extreme cases can self-destruct the blower. This is why high vac setups run water injection - to lower the temp! Here's the important bit - the max vacuum spec can only be used in a specific range of shaft speeds and cfm flow. As you decrease the shaft speed and maintain the same lift the discharge temp soars, likewise if you limit the cfm to significantly less than design the temp rises as well. Look at any of the blower vacuum performance curves (they all include a table that shows temp versus vac and shaft speed) and you can see this phenomenon.

The point is that TM's are set up to run at a specific operating point on the blower curve and it probably isn't max speed/max cfm. And many intentionally restrict the inlet on purpose to raise the discharge temp as it is to run a blower hx. Part of the criterion for choosing a vac setting may well be to keep the discharge temp under the limit at their chosen operating point! If that's the case and you arbitrarily raise it you could be cutting many hours off the blower's life span. The problem is there is no way to easily tell if this is your case without some sort of engineering analysis or actual temp monitoring.

Bottom line is you can bet these manufacturers don't just pick a number out of the air (except maybe in parts of Texas, and I don't mean Cobbs....).
 

dgardner

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Tri lobe or dual lobe Blower Larry ? The charts state the opposite of what you are saying.

CFM goes up, lift goes down

CFM goes down, lift goes up

I guess it depends on what blower you are testing

I would like to comment on this as well - you are both right because you are talking about two different things!

Todd's comment is correct, but remember - the charts refer to a bare blower, not a complete system.

The blower moves the most air if the inlet and outlet are completely unrestricted - so low vac equals high(est) cfm. As you restrict the inlet naturally the cfm decreases and vac rises, so high vac equals lower cfm (but not a bunch lower, just a little). The charts simply indicate the obvious - as you increase the blower inlet restriction you will create vacuum and in the process move a little less air.

Larry is referring to a complete system, a TM.

If you start a TM and hook up a hose and wand (and maybe put the wand on carpet) you are restricting the blower inlet. Same as above? Nope - your TM system has a vac relief! When Larry talks about raising the vac it's done by adjusting the relief to a higher setting, not by changing the restriction at the blower inlet, so the chart no longer applies.

Think this through in your mind - I'm just making these nice round numbers up but you will get the point. Lets say at 13" the wand is flowing 200cfm and the relief valve is flowing 200cfm (you have a 400 cfm blower). You crank up the relief setting to 16" so it closes down to raise the vac, and now flows only 100 cfm. The blower speed hasn't changed and it's a positive displacement pump so it still wants to move 400 cfm - and the air has to come from somewhere - so more air flows through the hose/wand (OK Todd you're right - according to the chart at the higher vac it's only pulling, say, 380, not 400, but the hose still has to flow more air - 280 vs 200 - to make up for the reduced relief flow). Thus Larry's correct comment that increased vac at the hose connection moves more air through it and the wand.

Another way of looking at it is to remember what actually moves the air - it is atmospheric pressure that pushes the air into the hose. Why doesn't air flow through a bare piece of hose that has both ends open? Because the atmosphere is pushing just as hard at both ends. Think of you and your buddy trying to move a car - you are pushing forward from the trunk and he is pushing backwards from the hood. Obviously the car goes nowhere. I (the blower) grab your buddy (atmospheric pressure inside the waste tank) and yank him out of the way. Now you (atmospheric pressure at the wand) are now free to push the car (air inside the hose) forward (toward the waste tank).

The more air the blower can yank out of the way the easier it is for atmospheric pressure at the wand to push air into the hose. Said another way, the higher the vac at the hose connection the more cfm flows through the hose!

That's all I got - going to bed...
 

Mark Saiger

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I cleaned carpet for over 10 years . . .

but that does not change the physics of "Lift vs CFM"

More Lift at the Wand = More CFM thru the Carpet.

P.S. Mark - sounds like your dad believed in high Lift.

Back in those days....we were all just really guessing I would have to say...

We really did a lot of experimenting...and I do have to say....sometimes we are still guessing.....LOL...

Sometimes in the field it just seems there is another little dynamic somewhere in the set up that a person doesn't account for that messes up the other....

So being the old farmers and racer types....we try....and sometimes fail miserably... :)
 
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Larry Cobb

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QUOTEarrow-10x10.png="dgardner, post: 4390048, member: 41935"]A comment on this if I could - the limit on max vacuum is primarily a temperature limit. As you pull a higher vacuum (which is another way of saying higher pressure differential across the blower) the differential temp (and thus the outlet temp) rises. The higher temps reduce component longevity and in extreme cases can self-destruct the blower. This is why high vac setupsarrow-10x10.png run water injection - to lower the temp! Here's the important bit - the max vacuum spec can only be used in a specific range of shaft speeds and cfm flow. As you decrease the shaft speed and maintain the same lift the discharge temp soars, likewise if you limit the cfm to significantly less than design the temp rises as well.

The point is that TM's are set up to run at a specific operating point on the blower curve and it probably isn't max speed/max cfm. And many intentionally restrict the inlet on purpose to raise the discharge temp as it is to run a blower hx. Part of the criterion for choosing a vac setting may well be to keep the discharge temp under the limit at their chosen operating point! If that's the case and you arbitrarily raise it you could be cutting many hours off the blower's life span. The problem is there is no way to easily tell if this is your case without some sort of engineering analysis or actual temp monitoring.
[ QUOTEarrow-10x10.png]

This is the advantage of the Sutorbilt MR series blowers.

By moving the gearcase away from the friction of the lobes, they have decreased temperatures in the gearcase ;

which allows operating at higher lift levels.

Actual Thermal Images of old vs. New MR (bottom)
4mr.jpg
 

Desk Jockey

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Isn't there a point of diminishing marginal productivity?

If what A.J. said is true and his wand is lifting up the carpet from the floor, I would question the value to the cleaner. That sounds like much harder work just moving a tool across the surface. ??? :errf:
 

dgardner

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I think that to really take advantage of higher lift and the resulting increased cfm at the wand you would have to have a wand designed specifically to flow without locking down at that operating point.
 
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Desk Jockey

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I think that to really take advantage of higher lift and the resulting increased cfm at the wand you would have to have a wand designed specifically to flow without locking down at that operating point.
Yea something with a vacuum relief....to negate the higher lift blower. :oldrolleyes:

:lol:
 
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Isn't there a point of diminishing marginal productivity?

If what A.J. said is true and his wand is lifting up the carpet from the floor, I would question the value to the cleaner. That sounds like much harder work just moving a tool across the surface. ??? :errf:

We had a customer call and asked if our cleaning cleans the pad too... They swear up and down the other guys machine was soo powerful it cleaned the pad too...

We said to go with the other guy... :clap:
 
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rick imby

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I think that to really take advantage of higher lift and the resulting increased cfm at the wand you would have to have a wand designed specifically to flow without locking down at that operating point.

A wand designed to have increased CFM---two vacuum ports and an adjustment on the rear wheels to eliminate complete lockdown----

Winner would be a Zipper. Always airflow as one of the heads will not be locked down...
 

rick imby

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As usual Mr Gardner explains things so the rest of us can understand --

Proof that you don't need to understand the physics of CFM/Lift is both Mikey and Chavez have successful businesses.....
**
Do Physics experiments give different results if it is a carpet cleaner with 100 hours or 10,000 hours behind the wand does them?

I don't care how many hours you put behind a wand Mr Gardner will still understand a whole lot more about the physics of blowers than you or me.
 

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