New Glide Design
- Thread starter Larry Cobb
- Start date
hogjowl
Idiot™
She sent me a dog one time.
Last edited:
hogjowl
Idiot™
And you make an excellent filter.
You should be proud.
You should be proud.
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
"Bullshit . . . , we were named in the same lawsuit, and hired the same lawyer as Greenie and Lisa."
We were named in the suit, along with Ken Harris, Larry Cobb and Ray Perrine of Fabchem. Eventually all were dropped except for Jeff and I. In the beginning the attorney we retained also worked with Cobb and Ray. At that time we bore the burden of her fees, however once we were no longer represented by her, I do not know if Cobb ponied up financially to continue to have her help him with his settlement agreement. There was also a second, Utah attorney that was retained in order to file papers in Utah and do the legwork for the California attorney who we also had to pay.
"I flew to California to give a half-day deposition presenting lots of documentation I had, that predated the "patent" in question."
Yes, he did. I have a copy of his deposition. I have a copy of your deposition, Larry.
"Chemdry's lawyer and Cobb's lawyer worked out a settlement based on the final outcome of the existing trial."
There was no trial. They (Cobb and Ken Harris) settled long before the lawsuit finished in March of 2012, never having gone to trial. There were numerous court appearances and hearings, but no trial. No one but myself, Jeff (once, by force) and my husband ever went to court or attended any of the hearings, nor did they file any papers in the case.
"Previous to the settlement, I asked Greenie and Lisa if they had enough funds to see the trial to completion.
They told me that they had allocated plenty of funds to fight the case."
Our attorney had allowed us to work a monthly installment of $2K. We were able to do that. What she did not tell us and we did not realize was that she would need $35-40K upfront to commence the discovery portion of the suit. She would not allow us to include these costs in our installment plan as they were largely out of pocket expenses. We didn't have that kind of money or any source for it and our attorney said that without performing discovery she would not be able to effectively represent us, so regretfully, we could not pay her and she requested to be withdrawn as our attorney. From there we had to represent ourselves.
"Then . . . the next day they fired their lawyer due to costs and decided to defend the case without a lawyer."
We didn't fire our attorney. She requested to be withdrawn, at least a month or two after the depositions.
"Also, John at Mytee spent a considerable sum of money to try to have many patent claims thrown out."
John spent an enormous amount of money. I was in the trial every day observing and worked with his attorneys providing them information and documents. Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, he had the absolute worst, overpriced attorneys imaginable. A famous patent expert who followed the case even commented in his blog about how badly they bungled the case: http://www.patenthawk.com/blog/2011/09/suck_it_up.html
"My understanding of the outcome of that case is that the patent was sent back to the Patent Office for re-examination of the claims (a slow process)."
An extremely slow process. I haven't talked to John recently to see where they were on this, and since the USPTO changed their website I haven't been able to get on and see what has happened in the last year or so, but last I saw....the whole thing was dieing a slow death at the hands of greedy attorneys and an overburdened patent examiners office.
"I am glad that Lisa was able to get an agreement to market a "modified glide"."
I made no agreement ever. The judge decided on March 12, 2012 that I was not in contempt of court and that my products did not violate the patents.
I like Larry and I don't care who he does business with. No offense to me. He buys GreenGlides too. I am just glad that Tony Dang and his products are not welcome on this board. Larry has been in this industry a very long time and he has contributed much. He deserves respect and doesn't deserve much of what has been said about him on here. You can disagree about things; methods, chemistry, equipment, etc. but personal attacks are uncalled for.
Take care,
Lisa
We were named in the suit, along with Ken Harris, Larry Cobb and Ray Perrine of Fabchem. Eventually all were dropped except for Jeff and I. In the beginning the attorney we retained also worked with Cobb and Ray. At that time we bore the burden of her fees, however once we were no longer represented by her, I do not know if Cobb ponied up financially to continue to have her help him with his settlement agreement. There was also a second, Utah attorney that was retained in order to file papers in Utah and do the legwork for the California attorney who we also had to pay.
"I flew to California to give a half-day deposition presenting lots of documentation I had, that predated the "patent" in question."
Yes, he did. I have a copy of his deposition. I have a copy of your deposition, Larry.
"Chemdry's lawyer and Cobb's lawyer worked out a settlement based on the final outcome of the existing trial."
There was no trial. They (Cobb and Ken Harris) settled long before the lawsuit finished in March of 2012, never having gone to trial. There were numerous court appearances and hearings, but no trial. No one but myself, Jeff (once, by force) and my husband ever went to court or attended any of the hearings, nor did they file any papers in the case.
"Previous to the settlement, I asked Greenie and Lisa if they had enough funds to see the trial to completion.
They told me that they had allocated plenty of funds to fight the case."
Our attorney had allowed us to work a monthly installment of $2K. We were able to do that. What she did not tell us and we did not realize was that she would need $35-40K upfront to commence the discovery portion of the suit. She would not allow us to include these costs in our installment plan as they were largely out of pocket expenses. We didn't have that kind of money or any source for it and our attorney said that without performing discovery she would not be able to effectively represent us, so regretfully, we could not pay her and she requested to be withdrawn as our attorney. From there we had to represent ourselves.
"Then . . . the next day they fired their lawyer due to costs and decided to defend the case without a lawyer."
We didn't fire our attorney. She requested to be withdrawn, at least a month or two after the depositions.
"Also, John at Mytee spent a considerable sum of money to try to have many patent claims thrown out."
John spent an enormous amount of money. I was in the trial every day observing and worked with his attorneys providing them information and documents. Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, he had the absolute worst, overpriced attorneys imaginable. A famous patent expert who followed the case even commented in his blog about how badly they bungled the case: http://www.patenthawk.com/blog/2011/09/suck_it_up.html
"My understanding of the outcome of that case is that the patent was sent back to the Patent Office for re-examination of the claims (a slow process)."
An extremely slow process. I haven't talked to John recently to see where they were on this, and since the USPTO changed their website I haven't been able to get on and see what has happened in the last year or so, but last I saw....the whole thing was dieing a slow death at the hands of greedy attorneys and an overburdened patent examiners office.
"I am glad that Lisa was able to get an agreement to market a "modified glide"."
I made no agreement ever. The judge decided on March 12, 2012 that I was not in contempt of court and that my products did not violate the patents.
I like Larry and I don't care who he does business with. No offense to me. He buys GreenGlides too. I am just glad that Tony Dang and his products are not welcome on this board. Larry has been in this industry a very long time and he has contributed much. He deserves respect and doesn't deserve much of what has been said about him on here. You can disagree about things; methods, chemistry, equipment, etc. but personal attacks are uncalled for.
Take care,
Lisa
Mikey P
Administrator
I read them too.
Can you say squeel like a pig in texmex?
Can you say squeel like a pig in texmex?
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
Larry, just because it was bugging me, I looked up the date the attorney requested to withdraw from the case, it was 7/20/06. Our depositions were all done in mid-May 2006. So it was two months, not the next day and again, she wasn't fired, she withdrew.
Take care,
Lisa
Take care,
Lisa
Ralph Pastorelli
Member
Larry Cobb
Member
I do agree with one concluding paragraph from the blog:
"This is another instance of invalid patents issued by the PTO raising costs to consumers by destroying competition, and of the courts ignoring evidence to bolster corporate power.
It is also a caution to companies to retain competent counsel, which is much easier said than done."
-------------
Lisa; I do have a question for you:
You and Jeff delivered the tweaked Greenie 14" wand to the industry for a reasonable price (~$600 or so at that time with glide) .
Do you think the industry should now be paying ~$1500 for a Ti currently with glide ?
Larry
"This is another instance of invalid patents issued by the PTO raising costs to consumers by destroying competition, and of the courts ignoring evidence to bolster corporate power.
It is also a caution to companies to retain competent counsel, which is much easier said than done."
-------------
Lisa; I do have a question for you:
You and Jeff delivered the tweaked Greenie 14" wand to the industry for a reasonable price (~$600 or so at that time with glide) .
Do you think the industry should now be paying ~$1500 for a Ti currently with glide ?
Larry
Last edited:
Mikey P
Administrator
Larry, you are aware of the different grades of Titanium, correct?
Larry Cobb
Member
I don't give a flip about the different grades of Titanium.
Very few cleaners can afford $1500 for a fricken wand . . .
Larry
Very few cleaners can afford $1500 for a fricken wand . . .
Larry
Mikey P
Administrator
I can't afford a home on Kauai but you don't see me crying about it every time someone mentions cleaning a nice home here.
Are you some sort of hick communist or what?
Are you some sort of hick communist or what?
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
I had a Prochem Titanium wand, it was my favorite of all of the wands I had, even more than the Greenhorn. It was worth the money. It is a lifetime wand. I wouldn't pay $100 for a sheet metal ti wand, at least none that I have seen so far, they are too thin and flimsy. But a quality cast head....yes, it's worth it. Otherwise I would just go to quality stainless for a sheet metal wand. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two best selling glides we make are the Prochem Quadjet and the Prochem Titanium.
There is a reason the Greenhorn is no longer offered. And it's not just because Greenie flaked out. We lost money on every distributor sale and didn't make much on end users.....somehow Jeff always thought he could make that up in volume (
). It really should have been a $1K wand in order to be realistic financially. We looked for a long time before settling on the CMP wand to use as the base, the main things that swayed us was the heavy sheet metal, good welds which were smooth inside - where it really matters, and the "attic" in the head, like the Butler wands have, to more evenly distribute the vacuum.
I've watched many, many manufacturers release wands in different designs and materials - some with very innovative designs - but the fatal flaw in nearly all of them is an attempt to make them cheaper. Metal too thin, cheap components that break, flimsy aluminum or rotomolded plastic. If they just accepted that a quality wand is going to cost and realize that folks will pay it IF it really does what it's supposed to reliably. Sometimes it's better to aim for the top customers than to scramble and fight for the bottom.
I learned something cleaning carpet: It was much better to do one $500 job than ten $50 jobs. Seems the cheapest jobs and the cheapest customers were often the biggest pains too. I'd much rather sell one great $1500 wand than 10 crappy $150 wands. It is not a universal truth, but for the most part....you do get what you pay for.
Take care,
Lisa
There is a reason the Greenhorn is no longer offered. And it's not just because Greenie flaked out. We lost money on every distributor sale and didn't make much on end users.....somehow Jeff always thought he could make that up in volume (
). It really should have been a $1K wand in order to be realistic financially. We looked for a long time before settling on the CMP wand to use as the base, the main things that swayed us was the heavy sheet metal, good welds which were smooth inside - where it really matters, and the "attic" in the head, like the Butler wands have, to more evenly distribute the vacuum. I've watched many, many manufacturers release wands in different designs and materials - some with very innovative designs - but the fatal flaw in nearly all of them is an attempt to make them cheaper. Metal too thin, cheap components that break, flimsy aluminum or rotomolded plastic. If they just accepted that a quality wand is going to cost and realize that folks will pay it IF it really does what it's supposed to reliably. Sometimes it's better to aim for the top customers than to scramble and fight for the bottom.
I learned something cleaning carpet: It was much better to do one $500 job than ten $50 jobs. Seems the cheapest jobs and the cheapest customers were often the biggest pains too. I'd much rather sell one great $1500 wand than 10 crappy $150 wands. It is not a universal truth, but for the most part....you do get what you pay for.
Take care,
Lisa
Mikey P
Administrator
post of the month Lisa.
the bottom feeder clientele Larry deals with in Texas wont let him agree.
btw, I think I was the one who coined the term "Attic".
the bottom feeder clientele Larry deals with in Texas wont let him agree.
btw, I think I was the one who coined the term "Attic".
ruff
Member
I've never done a test but the PC TI wand seem to have very good recovery without the "attic" which allows it to under lower furniture which is a nice advantage.
Any reason, why it does well without the "attic"?
Any reason, why it does well without the "attic"?
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
Call Phil who was nice enough to throw it in for you. He is our distributor. He also takes care of you and your equipment. Support the people who support and take care of you.
Take care,
Lisa
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
Jon-Don has this wonderful pic of the back side of the head of a ti wand:
http://www.jondon.com/prochem-titan...bnraWraarwxsPbvrVPaWARj3yENansZfbIaAi1o8P8HAQ
See the two chambers that stretch from the tube to the edges of the wand? They act in much the same way as the "attic". More evenly dispersing the vacuum.
Take care,
Lisa
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
I do still think the CMP has an edge over the PC Ti when it comes to even vac and spray.
Take care,
Lisa
Take care,
Lisa
Does the PC Ti have a bridge in the middle of the vac slot, in that picture it looks like there is a spot weld just above the lip under the tube??
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
Most of them do, but some people knock them out, the wand is heavy enough it really doesn't need it.
Take care,
Lisa
Mikey P
Administrator
Some have a pin, the Ruger built heads have a V shaped bridge
Man I hate that dang pin, I have a wand and it has that son of gun in there. My son and I were doing a big old folks home and I was running buffer with my tank scrubbing in the pre treatment and he was running wand get all the way to the end of the up stairs hallway and I look back at his progress and you can just tell something isn't right.... Go pull his earphones out hey what the heck man can't you tell something is wrong
Flip the wand over and pull out the biggest hair tube and I mean tube!!! I have ever seen I should have taken a pic. I just looked at him and said REALLY YOU COULDN'T tell something was wrong???
Pull all 265 feet of hose back up stairs and reconnect the sections cool cuffs every 25 feet
Went and got him the PC4 and told him if your not going to check it. Have fun with this baby wand and 1300 feet of carpet, and we had 3 more just like it
and a big rec room hope you tunes last that long
Flip the wand over and pull out the biggest hair tube and I mean tube!!! I have ever seen I should have taken a pic. I just looked at him and said REALLY YOU COULDN'T tell something was wrong???
Pull all 265 feet of hose back up stairs
and reconnect the sections cool cuffs every 25 feet Went and got him the PC4 and told him if your not going to check it. Have fun with this baby wand and 1300 feet of carpet, and we had 3 more just like it
and a big rec room hope you tunes last that long
truckmount girl
1800greenglides
"and pull out the biggest hair tube and I mean tube!!!"
I always called those "Wand Hamsters". In your case it may have been a "New York Sewer Wand Rat".
Take care,
Lisa
I always called those "Wand Hamsters". In your case it may have been a "New York Sewer Wand Rat".
Take care,
Lisa
AshleyMckendree
Supportive Member
IMO, the CMP 14 has way more suck than the PCti.
It leaves the carpet drier, and if I hook both up to the V, side by side.... the CMP 14 is SCREAMING with Airflow (Both with Hybrid glides). Unfortunately the PCti is just plain easier on my back.
It leaves the carpet drier, and if I hook both up to the V, side by side.... the CMP 14 is SCREAMING with Airflow (Both with Hybrid glides). Unfortunately the PCti is just plain easier on my back.
Mikey P
Administrator
All 3 f my Ti wands sing a different song when hooked up Ashley.
Vac slot gap determines the pitch, not suction.
Vac slot gap determines the pitch, not suction.
AshleyMckendree
Supportive Member
Not only by sound, but by pure grab on the carpet, and how much drier it leaves the carpet (Both are 20+ flow)
Dont get me wrong, the PCti is here to stay, and is the top choice of myself and the helpers/techs when it comes to Wands.
But now that we have a wand handle for our 13" Zipper, Its rare either wand is pulled into the job.
Dont get me wrong, the PCti is here to stay, and is the top choice of myself and the helpers/techs when it comes to Wands.
But now that we have a wand handle for our 13" Zipper, Its rare either wand is pulled into the job.
ruff
Member
I just sawed the pin off, for the exact reason you mention. The wand is fine (actually better) without it.
ruff
Member
Larry, if you do not like the PC Ti on its own merit, that fine.
However, any carpet cleaner that buys their wand based on price alone is a fool. It is the tool we use every single day 7/24/365 And it helps our backs and prolongs our career. A good tool is worth the extra $.
Any carpenter or for that matter any professional that I know, buys the best, most durable, hardie and dependable tools available. They need them to perform at their best every single day. Next time when you hire a carpenter that uses one of the Home Depot "specials", please let us know the quality of his work.
P.S. Under no circumstances, should you pay him in advance
However, any carpet cleaner that buys their wand based on price alone is a fool. It is the tool we use every single day 7/24/365 And it helps our backs and prolongs our career. A good tool is worth the extra $.
Any carpenter or for that matter any professional that I know, buys the best, most durable, hardie and dependable tools available. They need them to perform at their best every single day. Next time when you hire a carpenter that uses one of the Home Depot "specials", please let us know the quality of his work.
P.S. Under no circumstances, should you pay him in advance
Larry Cobb
Member
I actually liked the 4-Jet Ti wands when they were out . . .
since they had the proper jet spacing . . .
Our customers mainly buy the CMP with angled jets and Bentley handle , plus a few Bentleys (swivel and non-swivel).
How many bought this $1500 design ?
Larry
since they had the proper jet spacing . . .
Our customers mainly buy the CMP with angled jets and Bentley handle , plus a few Bentleys (swivel and non-swivel).
How many bought this $1500 design ?
Larry
Last edited:
