Something to think about rotary extraction

[Desk Jockey]

Ouch! Why is it the truth always hurts.

No matter I know I can clean with a wand better than any of ya'll that use a RE any day!

You MUST be talking about the other guy, I know what I'm doing I've been doing it the same way for decades.



P.S.
You know that if your doctor practiced medicine the same why he did when he first became a doctor, they would sue him for malpractice. So if the malpractice fits.....

Gawwwd what a dik I be.

 

[Steve Toburen]

I know this will be out of character, but I'm gonna be brutally honest here...

Don't be timid, Fred. Tell us how you really feel.

Steve

PS Since my name has entered in here let me just explain my feelings about ANY powered rotary head. Way back in the Dark Ages when the original RX-20 came out I fought the whole concept like crazy. I felt they were a) too heavy, b) too slow and c) too expensive. I still feel this way.

BUT one time my distributor told me, "Steve, ya gotta try the RX-20. Take it for a week on me and work it." So I just said "OK" and forgot about it in the back of my little station wagon. Then my guys were out on a super trashed rental with light Robins Egg blue saxony carpet that had totally grayed out with horrible pile distortion in the traffic lanes. They called me totally freaked out because NOTHING was budging it. So I ran over there, grabbed the scrub wand and told 'em, "Lemme show you kids how a real man cleans carpet!" Pre-spray, pre-agitate with the 175 and then scrub, scrub, scrub, pant, scrub, scrub, start to black out and "OK, you guys are right- this one is a goner!"

Then I remembered the RX-20 in the back of my car. We hooked it up and the RX-20 made that carpet look ALMOST NEW. I went back to the office and called the distributor and asked if I could keep his loaner. "Oh, and while you are at it can you send me three more RX-20's?" From that point on we still edged and cleaned under all furniture with a wand. Then after the furniture was replaced and tabbed the crews switched the Q/C onto the "Rexy" and they cleaned all the visible open areas on ALL residential carpets IF they weren't delaminated or berbers.

I estimate this added 10% to 12% more time to the average job. BUT in return I got much more consistent results, higher quality with MUCH better pile restoration in the traffic lanes and my employees weren't as tired at the end of the day. Did I mention "consistency"? This is everything when your employees are out there working unsupervised.

Now can an owner-operator using a whole bag of tricks including the separate step pre-scrubbing with a rotary almost equal the results of a rotary extraction head? Absolutely! BUT it will a) take more time and b) be much harder on a possibly aging body. One of my best friends in this business when he was still cleaning carpets alone with no helper at 60 told me, "Steve, the RX-20 has added 10 years to my working life."

Any way, that is my story and I'm sticking to it. Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

NOTE: My position at Jon-Don has nothing to do with equipment sales. I honestly don't care what anyone buys. But IF you are going to be doing high-end work with unsupervised techs then I feel you should use a powered rotary extraction head. Or not... up to you. Isn't capitalism wonderful?

 

[Loren Egland]

Some great posts in this thread.

Put it this way. Are you willing to advertise in writing that you are the best cleaner in town and that nobody will outclean you? If your competitor is as concientious as you, has the same equipment, tools, chemicals as you, BUT he has a rotary jet extractor he uses, how comfortable would you be in using such a guarantee? There would likely be some slight doubt in your mind.

If you read these threads carefully like I do, people pump up what they have rather than what they don't have. OR they pump up what will get them in and out of the job the quickest.

Example is the prescrub and wand cleaners that desire to be quick. But if you notice the comments from those making the point that best quality trumps being quick, they almost to a man will tell you a rotary jet extractor will clean better and restore texture better. Of course these RJE cleaners also likely charge more to offset quickness. So they may not make anymore profit. But 'profi't is a different subject than 'better quality'.

 

[Jim Martin]

I believe that the mass majority understands and knows that you are not going to beat the power of a good rotary for its ability to clean a carpet....

Problem is that for years time has been pounded so deep into our heads that we fail to see the whole picture.......
we push our self's to knock out as many jobs in a day that we can trying to earn a buck....and in the end.....aside from a lot of aching backs..what did we accomplish..

I was the same way...and years ago I started looking at quality....not quantity...that was my turning point..everything changed for me.....
Does not make me better then anyone else...but it did make me more confident in my abilities because I could see a huge difference in the cleanings and in my clients..... and it has push my company forward...the filter never lies.......

If I have said it once I said it a hundred times....never give up quality for quantity....if you do....you might as well put a $99 whole house special on the back of your van and go for broke....

 

[KevinD]

I'm going to sticky this one for a while so some non RE people can let it sink in..

I remember back in the day when you said the 175/wand could not be beat.
Must have been before you got one.

 

[Mikey P]

Well duh..

 

[ruff]

I know this will be out of character, but I'm gonna be brutally honest here...

I can't take the opinion of 1 man shows that have been in biz for over 10 years, even less if they have been slinging a wand for 20+

Why? Cause It should be fairly common knowledge that ANYONE with that many years under their belt only needing 3-5 jobs a day can create that job for themselves

The bar is low, people are creatures of habit and the owner will be the constant

Put a rotary in an employee's hand and it equalizes the consistency a bit ( as Steve T says )

I applaud the guys that have gotten up every day after day after gawd forsaken day and put the nose to the grindstone solo forever with no end in sight ...

But don't delude yourself into thinking that you are anything more than the same Jake the Janitor that has always cleaned Mrs Upscale's home and beach home year after year

This discussion is about raising your companies game and taking it to the next level

Not old broken down wand slinger 101

I know this will be out of character, but I'm gonna be brutally honest here...
I can't take the opinion of a two vans show, who's been in business for over 10 years, even less if they have been slinging a wand for 20+

If they still haven't figured out the simple fact that it is not the tools. It is the man behind the tools (O/O and or employee) and the total package. Quality, ability to deal with and understand the client, image etc. etc.

Tools are tools, just one part (an equally important part) of the total package.

Liking you personally, I'll keep it real simple for you Fred: It ain't the tools!

Just like if you own an iphone and every single product ever made by Apple, it does not make you a great carpet cleaner. Neither will it raise your companie's game and take it to the next level.
It just makes you an enthused consumer.

One will only be able to take their company to the next level (whatever that means for you Fred), only once they understood it.

 

[hogjowl]

I know this will be out of character, but I'm gonna be brutally honest here...


I can't take the opinion of 1 man shows that have been in biz for over 10 years, even less if they have been slinging a wand for 20+

Why? Cause It should be fairly common knowledge that ANYONE with that many years under their belt only needing 3-5 jobs a day can create that job for themselves

The bar is low, people are creatures of habit and the owner will be the constant

Put a rotary in an employee's hand and it equalizes the consistency a bit ( as Steve T says )

I applaud the guys that have gotten up every day after day after gawd forsaken day and put the nose to the grindstone solo forever with no end in sight ...

But don't delude yourself into thinking that you are anything more than the same Jake the Janitor that has always cleaned Mrs Upscale's home and beach home year after year

This discussion is about raising your companies game and taking it to the next level

Not old broken down wand slinger 101

I was able to take my nap today for the first time in over a month. I went to sleep knowing I'm nothing but a "broken down wand slinger".

 

[Jim Martin]

I know this will be out of character, but I'm gonna be brutally honest here...
I can't take the opinion of a two vans show, who's been in business for over 10 years, even less if they have been slinging a wand for 20+

If they still haven't figured out the simple fact that it is not the tools. It is the man behind the tools (O/O and or employee) and the total package. Quality, ability to deal with and understand the client, image etc. etc.

Tools are tools, just one part (an equally important part) of the total package.

Liking you personally, I'll keep it real simple for you Fred: It ain't the tools!

Just like if you own an iphone and every single product ever made by Apple, it does not make you a great carpet cleaner. Neither will it raise your companie's game and take it to the next level.
It just makes you an enthused consumer.

One will only be able to take their company to the next level (whatever that means for you Fred), only once they understood it.

It is and always will be the man behind the tool...because he has to be smart enough to know which it the best tool for the job...
how to use that tool to deliver quality and be profitable.........That is only part of the package........but a very important part......because with out that...everything else is a mute point..because the wrong person behind even the best tool will screw everything else up.......and the right person behind the wrong tool is only going to accomplish so much.......

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Do you believe rotary extraction should be priced at a premium or do you offer it at a standard rate to offer value to your company?

 

[Steve Toburen]

Do you believe rotary extraction should be priced at a premium or do you offer it at a standard rate to offer value to your company?

You'll get a million different opinions here, Daniel. I only had one quality with one base price- the very best basic cleaning out there including rotary extraction in all open areas over saxony padded carpet. (Maybe it is just me but I find the RX-20 at least jumps around too much on glue down and doesn't get a good seal so the vacuum is bad.)

What I personally found was that if I offered different "cleaning qualities" at different price points the customer would SAY to go with the cheaper level but would WANT (and be unhappy with the final appearance od the carpet) the higher level. I just got tired of explaining/excusing/justifying why the carpets weren't perfect. So we raised our prices and started delivering one "the best we could do" quality. My customers (and my techs) were less confused too!

Steve

PS Our cleaning quality stayed the same. However, we did charge for pet deodorization, red stain removal, large furniture moving, stuff like that. Even though when I pre-inspected instead of saying "the red stain will be extra" I just factored it into the total price. People don't like being told they are being charged "extra". I say leave them in happy ignorance.

 

[ruff]

That's called making things simple Steve, as opposed to making it over complicated.

Which, again, in the unlikely event that I failed to mention, is part of the "smart" total package.

But I'll keep it real simple for Fred: It ain't only the tools!


P.S. I can also jibe it:
No matter what tools you have. It don't mean a thing, if you ain't got the swing.

 

[dealtimeman]

ofer have you ordered a hoss yet?

 

[ruff]

Once he realizes that buying the rotary will not set him free from his self inflicted "janitor" syndrome complex, I'll be buying Fred's used one.

 

[dealtimeman]

so all this drama and deep down you really want a hoss?

dont do this to yourself! life is too short! get a hoss!!!!!

 

[Shane Deubell]

The problem is these discussions are always done in a bubble.
Should i add a rotary?
Should i pre-vac?
Should i put out 5 dri-pods?

Not thinking about this individually but the cumulative effect of adding all these costs.
ON TOP of increases to paid time off,insurance, water, electricity, rent, TAXES.

Businesses don't go under because of 1 bad decision but death by a thousand cuts that add up over time.
If we went exclusively rotary then something else would get whacked pure and simple.

No benefit to being a "real" cleaner if at the end of the year you dont add to your net worth.

Even toburen admitted his residential operation had crappy margins.

 

[ruff]

You're right Shane.


But, but ,but......it will raise their company to the next level

so all this drama and deep down you really want a hoss?

dont do this to yourself! life is too short! get a hoss!!!!!

That's deep Michael.
Do you charge yourself a parking fee for having it parked in the back of your humongous truck for months?
What about the RVXL, is your Hoss bigger?

 

[Ron K]

The problem is these discussions are always done in a bubble.
Should i add a rotary?
Should i pre-vac?
Should i put out 5 dri-pods?

Not thinking about this individually but the cumulative effect of adding all these costs.
ON TOP of increases to paid time off,insurance, water, electricity, rent, TAXES.

Businesses don't go under because of 1 bad decision but death by a thousand cuts that add up over time.
If we went exclusively rotary then something else would get whacked pure and simple.

No benefit to being a "real" cleaner if at the end of the year you dont add to your net worth.

Even toburen admitted his residential operation had crappy margins.

2X

I'd like to ad that businesses don't succeed because of one good decision either!

 

[Desk Jockey]

But, but ,but......it will raise their company to the next level

And the walk ups too Shane. Don't forget the walkups when they see you own a RE. Hell they almost pay for themselves! Almost!

Yes you can go overboard and buy more things than you need. I call it the Lockhart syndrome.
Its difficult for me not to keep buying equipment.

 

[dealtimeman]

You're right Shane.


But, but ,but......it will raise their company to the next level



That's deep Michael.
Do you charge yourself a parking fee for having it parked in the back of your humongous truck for months?
What about the RVXL, is your Hoss bigger?

I don't charge myself a fee, I charge the customer the extra fee.

When we sell the job the "cost" of using the rotary is figured into the total at that time.

I will repeat myself again, YOU DONT NEED A ROTARY TO CLEAN CARPET!

Ofer knows I am just messing around with him and also as I saw ofer look over the many tools at mikesfest, he knows the value of a rotary in the scenarios that would warrant use.

I am a BUYOHOLIC AND SHOPPOHOLIC OF EQUIPMENT, AS I BUY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF EQUIPMENT EVERYYEAR JUST BECAUSE I WANT IT. most of the time it works out that I will need said equipment for particular scenarios and or unexpected influx of work.

When I buy said equipment, I try to buy as responsible as I can, so as to not hurt or endanger the financial position of the company. I am in a very blessed position to be able to do what I have done and what I will try to continue to do, and for me is to continue to try out as much new technology, processes and chemicals that come into our industry in an attempt to stay a step ahead of all others.

This strategy has worked very well for me, my family and my company. I will be the first to say that it is not the way for every company but will say you must always strive to be the best by whatever means or possibilities you have at hand.

You will notice that I buy at least one of almost anything new that comes out, and that's me and up till now it hasn't financially hurt us. I understand many other cannot do this yet. I do wish for all that want to keep growing with a drive to succeed, to get out to events like mikesfest and such, try all the "toys" and implement the new machines, techniques and strategies in their biz and I can almost but guarantee you with that drive you will succeed.

I never have advocated buying something out of your means and you can ask anyone that I have tried to help one on one. BUT I WILL SAY WITH LITTLE RISK, THERE WILL BE LITTLE REWARD, WITH GREATER(but calculated) RISK COMES GREATER REWARD!

You should know if you need a rotary or do not need one. Don't get stuck doing the same old as old just because that is all you know how to do.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I think some of the reason you see rotaries being parked is lack of proper maintenance.


Justin just did an autopsy on two nice looking RX-20s.

The previous owner had to be disappointed with their performance. No wonder:

Leaky union, clogged filters, leaking hoses and gasket holder for the (missing) felt seal worn completely though.

I try to imagine the last 500 hours cleaning with them...

 

[dealtimeman]

Exactly I bought a 360i for 300 dollars because the guy hated that it left the carpet to wet and was getting complaints.

I took the head off and the felt seal was half gone or missing so he had basically no vac. 5 dollars later I had a good machine.

 

[Shane Deubell]

Let me add we have 2 rx 20's but don't really use them anymore.
Not a fan of the rx on residential and on commercial we always scrub with cimex first so the agitation is unneeded.

Still will think about testing out something for residential, not sure which one though.

 

[ruff]

Ofer knows I am just messing around with him ...............

I know it, but do innocent people like "Dancing with Grass" aka "Prairie Boy" aka "lets watch the paint dry, grass grow, you name it", know it?

I beg to differ.

 

[Mikey P]

Shane when was the last time you went out and cleaned a resi carpet?

 

[dealtimeman]

Ofer, i meant everything i said, i think a rotary extractor will out clean almost anything or any combo on padded carpet.

on commercial it depends the carpet as to weather we will use a rotary or the zipper. most of the time we use both as we only have one zipper right now.

used one of the hoss's yesterday. not nearly as much work as wanding the carpet over and over in the traffic areas and where the cat like to relieve itself.
i should of taken a before and after but didn't. i thought i posted this already.

 

[Shane Deubell]

Shane when was the last time you went out and cleaned a resi carpet?

Has nothing to do with how well it cleaned, too heavy, industrial, cumbersome.
Just didn't like the rx20 on residential too aggressive or something. Looking more at like a rotovac.

BUT you are right and i should qualify my opinion by saying we focus on tile/grout for residential.
So what happens is people add a couple rooms of carpet, we are not banging out 20 rooms a day or whatever you guys do.

 

[Mikey P]

But do you go out and clean?

 

[Shane Deubell]

But do you go out and clean?

Absolutely, around 5 hours week. Sometimes more....

I like my business, just not 40 hours of straight labor. Have restless mind syndrome.

 

[Scott S.]

I skipped back to my rotary drimaster for one job last night. Almost forgot how awesome those are on residential carpets, the Hoss would just have Ben too much for the carpet, 20 yrs old but looks Like new. Had dark oily paths from feet, and foot cremes . Drimaster = no heat loss so it takes care of the oily spots better and used flex powder with end zone rinse. Wish I would have taken a pic.