What's going on with Procyon?

[hogjowl]

So pissy

 

[FredC]

Here’s the Procyon SDS. They just list regular salt instead of telling you what kind of salt.

Tetrasodium pyrophosphate

 

[Cleanworks]

You would think because it seems to be a simpler formulation, that it would be cheaper to make. There are no polymers, enzymes or oxidizers.

 

[Meter Maid]

Tetrasodium pyrophosphate

I did a little research. Seems like it does about the same thing as sodium tripolyphosphate.

I’ve heard the bonding agent (not listed on SDS) is what is pricey.

 

[Meter Maid]

It’s worth giving green dragon a try. I used Procyon and Carpet details.

GD seems identical and is around $130 for 30 pounds.

The version with oxy and citrus is $160.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Phosphate is used in one type of fertilizer. Besides oil, Russia exports many other raws for fertilizer. This will increase any raw related to fertilizer. Procyon is STPP or Sodium Tri Polyphosphate. Phosphates are great for rinsing and work at high dilution. There are diminishing returns when it is the only raw used in a pre-spray when there are no surfactant residues left in the carpet to boost the cleaning. However, whenever there are surfactant (soap) residues in carpet the STPP works to activate the soap residues for a cleaner carpet with less residue. https://blog.aramsco.com/removing-excessive-soap-residues

 

[Meter Maid]

So it is identical to Green Dragon.

 

[hogjowl]

I’ve heard the competition saying its STTP for years and years. It seems to be their way of passively dising the product. Go buy some STTP and get back to me on your experience. I don’t use it daily, but there are situations where it’s a good fit, so I keep it on hand. I’ve tried most of the copycat products, but I’m still using the original.
Outrageous price not withstanding.

 

[Mikey P]

I’ve heard the competition saying its STTP for years and years. It seems to be their way of passively dising the product. Go buy dome STTP and get back to me on your experience. I don’t use it daily, but there are situations where it’s a good fit, so I keep it on hand. I’ve tried most of the copycat products, but I’m still using the original.
Outrageous price not withstanding.

You mean to tell me soap daddy hasnt it knocked it off yet?, shocking...

 

[hogjowl]

He’s not giving you anything free

 

[Meter Maid]

I heard he’s almost done copying OS1 from CTI.

 

[Bill Soukoreff]

Phosphate is used in one type of fertilizer. Besides oil, Russia exports many other raws for fertilizer. This will increase any raw related to fertilizer. Procyon is STPP or Sodium Tri Polyphosphate. Phosphates are great for rinsing and work at high dilution. There are diminishing returns when it is the only raw used in a pre-spray when there are no surfactant residues left in the carpet to boost the cleaning. However, whenever there are surfactant (soap) residues in carpet the STPP works to activate the soap residues for a cleaner carpet with less residue. https://blog.aramsco.com/removing-excessive-soap-residues

Tom, what the difference between 7758-29-4 and 7722-88-5?

 

[Cleanworks]

Phosphate is used in one type of fertilizer. Besides oil, Russia exports many other raws for fertilizer. This will increase any raw related to fertilizer. Procyon is STPP or Sodium Tri Polyphosphate. Phosphates are great for rinsing and work at high dilution. There are diminishing returns when it is the only raw used in a pre-spray when there are no surfactant residues left in the carpet to boost the cleaning. However, whenever there are surfactant (soap) residues in carpet the STPP works to activate the soap residues for a cleaner carpet with less residue. https://blog.aramsco.com/removing-excessive-soap-residues

I use their plus powder as my rinse extraction detergent. One of the main reasons I like it, is that it creates no foam on its own. A lot of other extraction products whether acid or alkaline, are very foamy.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

I never heard of Green Dragon discussed until today so I have no idea what it is. However, if it is significantly lower in price then it is not the quality STPP (we do not buy any chemical from China)that we use or it has a filler like sodium sulfate or salt to lower the cost. Also when pricing jumps, someone may have old stock and are selling for less. The SDS does not require that you list every ingredient, but only the ingredients that impact the safety the most.

 

[Meter Maid]

I never heard of Green Dragon discussed until today so I have no idea what it is. However, if it is significantly lower in price then it is not the quality STPP (we do not buy any chemical from China)that we use or it has a filler like sodium sulfate or salt to lower the cost. Also when pricing jumps, someone may have old stock and are selling for less. The SDS does not require that you list every ingredient, but only the ingredients that impact the safety the most.

The seller told me it’s all sourced in the US and only contains STPP and some bonding agent.

Except the versions that contain oxy and citrus.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

The percentage matters. If it is 50% STPP and 50% bonding agent then it should be half the price of Procyon which is 100% STPP. The beauty of powders is that you can make up a year supply without concern of shelf life. If that were the case then a year ago the raws could be 30% less. We buy truckloads of STPP and know that the product in question needs more margin to survive if it 100% STPP. While we are at it, there is nothing "green" about STPP except in rinse dilutions.
https://www.epa.gov/saferchoice/safer-ingredients#searchList
Blend of 7664-38-2 Phosphoric-Acid – 22% 7722-88-5 Sodium Salt – 78%
Phosphoric acid, monosodium salt 7558-80-7
Both are commonly known as sodium tri polyphosphate

All three CAS # show up on the EPA safer ingredient list with a function of oxidant stabilizer WHEN used at 0.5% (dilution of 1 to 200) to be on list. Pre-spray is 1 to 32. To be considered green product it has to be a 0.5% in concentrate not in dilution. No concentrated powder of STPP in a jar can be considered "green". While not safe for the environment phosphates are safer for use in homes as it is a food preservative and virtually odorless. I love using phosphates as they work well at high dilutions, but let us not make claims that are not true. I consider phosphate to be a super star ingredient. I am waiting for a super star basketball player to tell the refs that they do not need any star treatment. The same with STPP, their use speaks for themselves and they do not need any false advertising to shine.

 

[Jimmy L]

Tide professional Floor and all purpose cleaner
36 lb box $116 order online from Walmart

Seriously look at the ingredients and specs

Presprays are nothing but all purpose cleaners

 

[Mikey P]

He’s not giving you anything free

Thank God

 

[Cleanworks]

The percentage matters. If it is 50% STPP and 50% bonding agent then it should be half the price of Procyon which is 100% STPP. The beauty of powders is that you can make up a year supply without concern of shelf life. If that were the case then a year ago the raws could be 30% less. We buy truckloads of STPP and know that the product in question needs more margin to survive if it 100% STPP. While we are at it, there is nothing "green" about STPP except in rinse dilutions.
https://www.epa.gov/saferchoice/safer-ingredients#searchList
Blend of 7664-38-2 Phosphoric-Acid – 22% 7722-88-5 Sodium Salt – 78%
Phosphoric acid, monosodium salt 7558-80-7
Both are commonly known as sodium tri polyphosphate

All three CAS # show up on the EPA safer ingredient list with a function of oxidant stabilizer WHEN used at 0.5% (dilution of 1 to 200) to be on list. Pre-spray is 1 to 32. To be considered green product it has to be a 0.5% in concentrate not in dilution. No concentrated powder of STPP in a jar can be considered "green". While not safe for the environment phosphates are safer for use in homes as it is a food preservative and virtually odorless. I love using phosphates as they work well at high dilutions, but let us not make claims that are not true. I consider phosphate to be a super star ingredient. I am waiting for a super star basketball player to tell the refs that they do not need any star treatment. The same with STPP, their use speaks for themselves and they do not need any false advertising to shine.

MacDonald's says they use 100% beef. They just don't tell how much of it they use in a burger. Tom, aside from eutrophication, what other harm does it do to the environment?

 

[Tom Forsythe]

No other issues that I am aware of at this time, but give California some time and they will invent something. Generally, the issues with phosphate have been resolved by strictly regulating laundry detergent and automatic dish detergent to less than 0.5%. In my house we do roughly 150 loads of dishes and 150 loads of laundry every year. I like encapsulation so I probably only use phosphate in cleaning every other year. Fertilizer is the other high use for phosphate. My point is that our industry is not of primary or even secondary concern for phosphates. We need to remember that the source of phosphate is mined and part of the earth.

 

[Cleanworks]

No other issues that I am aware of at this time, but give California some time and they will invent something. Generally, the issues with phosphate have been resolved by strictly regulating laundry detergent and automatic dish detergent to less than 0.5%. In my house we do roughly 150 loads of dishes and 150 loads of laundry every year. I like encapsulation so I probably only use phosphate in cleaning every other year. Fertilizer is the other high use for phosphate. My point is that our industry is not of primary or even secondary concern for phosphates. We need to remember that the source of phosphate is mined and part of the earth.

Thanks. We have several projects in our province where they are adding phosphates to certain lakes in an effort to create more algae and plant growth to give food and habitat for certain species of fish and amphibians.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

I was going to say that about some adding phosphates as a positive, but I did not remember any specific examples. I always want to sure that I know something before I write it rather than hearing something as my basis for facts.

 

[Cleanworks]

I was going to say that about some adding phosphates as a positive, but I did not remember any specific examples. I always want to sure that I know something before I write it rather than hearing something as my basis for facts.

I find it hard to post links with my cell phone but Google Alouettes lake BC adding phosphates and it should come up. Cultus lake is another and I believe there are several in the interior. Alouette is a beautiful lake that was largely created by a hydro dam. Fed by rivers and streams upstream, it's home to cutthroat trout, kokanee and some say lake trout. Lake trout were introduced in the 1920's if I remember right but did not reproduce in great numbers. There are legends of 20 lb monsters but I haven't seen any. The lake is surrounded by snow capped mountains.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

https://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/acat/documents/r41091/Projectreport129_1389823912600_9823285216.pdf entitled THE ALOUETTE RESERVOIR NUTRIENT RESTORATION PROGRAM, 2003-2008

 

[Jimmy L]

Tide all purpose cleaner

 

[BIG WOOD]

Tide all purpose cleaner

No phosphates. But Awesome is a pretty decent prespray

 

[Sierra Clean Care]

No phosphates. But Awesome is a pretty decent prespray

This place is going to hell….

First encap, now laundry detergent?

SMH…

 

[markco]

I like the idea of encapping with powder products like GD, Carpet Details, Ect, but don't feel comfortable encapping without a polymer. My concerns are, Do the polymer encaps leave a better appearance (at least initially) and stay cleaner longer? And do the powders leave more of a residue in the form of salts that would be noticeable to the client??

 

[Cleanworks]

I like the idea of encapping with powder products like GD, Carpet Details, Ect, but don't feel comfortable encapping without a polymer. My concerns are, Do the polymer encaps leave a better appearance (at least initially) and stay cleaner longer? And do the powders leave more of a residue in the form of salts that would be noticeable to the client??

As long as you are using the correct dilution, there will be be no visible residue. I prefer to use a polymeric encap as I feel it's designed specifically for that job.

 

[Jimmy L]

Look it up idiot it's made by Tide but isn't laundry detergent

Tide professional all purpose cleaner