My Apex will only run in the override position..

[Able 1]

That's great! If you grounded the sensor wire to make it run then your wiring doesn't match the Prochem manual - interesting....

I'm still having issues,and I think they are electrical.. So, I have been loosing vacuum, and the belts a acting unusual (lots of vibration ).. I changed the blower with my Apex rebuild and the same issue.. I also put new belts on and lined them up perfectly with a 1/2" deflection. I need to have this electrical stuff figured out before I go any further..

 

[Able 1]

Weird that grounding out the sensors makes it run.. Normally a ground would kill it right?

 

[dgardner]

Wow - that's some jumpy belts. Do you think an electrical problem could somehow cause that?

Yes, normally the safeties (like the oil pressure switch) ground the wire to kill the engine.

 

[Able 1]

Dan, I don't know.. I do think it's electrical..

 

[dgardner]

Is the engine running rough or missing?

 

[dgardner]

If the "grounded sensor" issue is what I thought it was earlier you should be able to tell by tracing the wires that go to the shutdown relay. It should be wired like this (you should be able to see the terminal numbers on the relay near each terminal, and I posted a relay diagram back in post #48):

• relay terminal 30 should be a green wire that goes to the waste tank float switch
• relay terminal 85 should be a white/black wire that goes to the 15A circuit breaker
• relay terminal 86 should be a grey/white wire that goes to the oil pressure switch AND temperature switch
• relay terminal 87 should be a light blue wire that goes to the amber check engine light
• relay terminal 87A should be a orange/white wire that goes to the override switch (the one you're supposed to hold while starting the engine)

If the wires going to 87 and 87A accidentally got reversed, it would cause the situation you are seeing - where you must ground temp/oil sensor to run.

If you find they are reversed, and you swap them back, you must unground your temporary wiring for the engine to run normally.

I certainly hope it's that simple - but not sure this issue would cause your other problems - loss of vacuum, etc. - but one step at a time!

 

[Jim Martin]

KEITH......Before we start chasing our tails here and get tunnel vision on weather the wiring is correct or not...lets back up a bit....

on July 13th after we had talked...you said that the machine was up and running the way it should be and it went out and made you $700 bucks...

I am figuring that you are going to order the oil switch to replace the one that you jumped out.. and then we would see where that took us...

so my questions is...

up until now how has it been acting...

have you still been having problems..

when did the belt vibration just start..

what leads you to believe it is electrical...

did you order a new oil pressure switch....

normally when belts do that it is because the engine is not running the way it should..could be..
a bad coil pack...
fuel pump...
fuel filter...
plugs..
plug wire...

something more along those areas.....that is not allowing the engine to run as smooth as it needs to...

so before we get to far a head of our self's...lets see if we can narrow this down a bit...........

 

[Able 1]

I changed the spark plugs a couple weeks ago and the fuel pump 2 months ago.. I also changed the last original coil pack a couple weeks ago(The others were changed a couple years ago).. changed the fuel filter today.

This problem is intermittent for example the first two jobs yesterday went fine then it acted up on the third..

looks like the spark is fine

 

[Able 1]

I want to hook up my tinytach to it, does anyone know how many sparks per revolution this motor has?

 

[Able 1]

I put in a new high temp switch and it didn't help I will order the oil pressure one monday.. the oil pressure switch that is in there now is from my other Apex that was working..

 

[Able 1]

If the "grounded sensor" issue is what I thought it was earlier you should be able to tell by tracing the wires that go to the shutdown relay. It should be wired like this (you should be able to see the terminal numbers on the relay near each terminal, and I posted a relay diagram back in post #48):

• relay terminal 30 should be a green wire that goes to the waste tank float switch
• relay terminal 85 should be a white/black wire that goes to the 15A circuit breaker
• relay terminal 86 should be a grey/white wire that goes to the oil pressure switch AND temperature switch
• relay terminal 87 should be a light blue wire that goes to the amber check engine light
• relay terminal 87A should be a orange/white wire that goes to the override switch (the one you're supposed to hold while starting the engine)

If the wires going to 87 and 87A accidentally got reversed, it would cause the situation you are seeing - where you must ground temp/oil sensor to run.

If you find they are reversed, and you swap them back, you must unground your temporary wiring for the engine to run normally.

I certainly hope it's that simple - but not sure this issue would cause your other problems - loss of vacuum, etc. - but one step at a time!

All the wires are right..

 

[Jim Martin]

one of the coils that you changed a few years ago could be going bad...what about the spark plug wires..did you change those...you could have a spark plug that is not happy with its gap.....spark plug wire that did not seat the way it should of...
the ecu unit could be going sideways......it can be something as stupid as a ground wire that is vibrating and causing a power loss at the engine...

take a grounding strap and hook it to the engine and then the frame...it should have one anyway...

is the fuel pump delivering the right amount of fuel...

can you hear a miss in the machine...can you hear it stumbling...

turn it on and ramp it all the way up and then cover the vacuum port...I would not be surprised if you hear it struggling like it is missing a cylinder....

If I was standing in front of it I would be checking all the above...it is the logical place to start....

let me know.....

 

[Jim Martin]

something else I just thought of...with the machine running...put your hand in front of the exhaust and see if you have a even flow coming out or if you can feel it pulsating...

 

[SamIam]

My tech was working on a apex that was bogging down and sputtering after hours of use it would run great then pecker out, sputter. turned out it needed the carburetor cleaned out, or replaced.

 

[Able 1]

one of the coils that you changed a few years ago could be going bad...what about the spark plug wires..did you change those...you could have a spark plug that is not happy with its gap.....spark plug wire that did not seat the way it should of...
the ecu unit could be going sideways......it can be something as stupid as a ground wire that is vibrating and causing a power loss at the engine...

take a grounding strap and hook it to the engine and then the frame...it should have one anyway...

is the fuel pump delivering the right amount of fuel...

can you hear a miss in the machine...can you hear it stumbling...

turn it on and ramp it all the way up and then cover the vacuum port...I would not be surprised if you hear it struggling like it is missing a cylinder....

If I was standing in front of it I would be checking all the above...it is the logical place to start....

let me know.....

It doesn't run like a bad coil, the 2nd video I had spark testers on all three cylinders at once and all of them looked to be firing correctly.

Checked gap,and adjusted spark plugs. wires come on new coils..

Went through the wiring on the ignition switch, pump switch, and shut down relay.. All wired correctly.

I ramped it up and covered the vac port and it bogs/struggles, but the spark was still the same on all cylinders..

No pulsing exhaust..

I runs great without anything connected..

When I cover the vac port shouldn't the governor kick in and demand more fuel?

I was thinking electrical being coils or wires, but now I'm leaning fuel

 

[Able 1]

The check engine/solution pressure light is also on not sure I mentioned that..

 

[Jim Martin]

its sounding like it is starving for fuel...or..it is getting to much fuel and flooding its self....

 

[Able 1]

I think it's starving.. When you have a bad coil pack you can smell the fuel. We will see...

 

[Able 1]

I took it in to Prochem milwaukee today and the guy there (pretty sharp) couldn't figure it out either.. I could tell he was a little upset that he couldn't also. He re checked the wiring and we did some testing I already did from pointers from you guys.. We spent about 2 hours and I left him scratching his head.

I'm going to run it tomorrow (because I have to )..

So, taking the ground off, I still have the same problem, it will only run in over ride. One other thing that he noted was the the check engine light also only lights up in the override position..

 

[dgardner]

Keith, have you ever replaced the shutdown relay? I have a thought....

 

[Able 1]

Yes, I have replaced it multiple times, because looking at the diagram that is where it HAS to happen..

 

[Able 1]

It's not...But I do need to figure out the electrical before I go any farther..

 

[Able 1]

I would (and might) drive this thing down to you guys..

1 day and 3 hours is kind of rough though!!

 

[dgardner]

Ok, here's the deal:

On these automotive relays the relay coil is terminals 85 and 86. On most of them the two terminals are interchangeable. BUT - on some relays there is a blocking diode inside that makes the coil polarity sensitive. On these relays, terminal 85 MUST be 12V- and 86 MUST be 12V+ or the relay won't function. I see on the Apex schematic that they have the coil wired opposite. This means if your replacement relay has the internal diode the relay won't switch!

You could either swap the wires that go to 85 and 86 (I would personally do that anyway, so any relay will work), or make sure your relay does not have the internal diode.

Here is the test sequence I would follow if I were there. I assume you have a test light (or meter) with one probe grounded to a clean ground (the terminal numbers assume you have NOT swapped the terminals):

• Make sure all the terminal numbers match up with the wire colors I mention!
• Probe terminal 85 (wht/blk). it should be hot all the time.
• Disconnect the wire (gray/wht) that goes from the oil and temp switch to terminal 86. Make sure the wire to the relay is not touching ground and is not connected to either sensor. Probe terminal 87A (org/wht) - it should be hot. Probe terminal 87 (lt blu) - it should be dead.
• Now temporarily ground terminal 86. You should hear the relay click. Terminal 87A should now be dead, and 87 should be hot. The check engine light should come on.
• If the last two steps worked, but backwards, then terminal 87 and 87A are swapped.

Based on what you find, we could go further.... Let me know.

 

[dgardner]

Oh, one other test:

• Yank the relay out. With the ignition on and engine not running, probe the relay socket terminal 87A (org/wht). It should be dead. hold the override switch on - 87A should go hot. The check engine light should NOT come on.

 

[Able 1]

I was pretty busy today so I didn't get to test much.. 85 isn't hot all the time only when the key is in the run position (this is with both sensors connected)..

 

[Able 1]

Oh, one other test:

• Yank the relay out. With the ignition on and engine not running, probe the relay socket terminal 87A (org/wht). It should be dead. hold the override switch on - 87A should go hot. The check engine light should NOT come on.

This worked with everything hooked up right..

 

[dgardner]

only when the key is in the run position

Yes, everything will go dead if you turn the key off!

 

[dgardner]

All the tests I mentioned are with the key on.

 

[Able 1]

I can assure you the relay is wired correctly(I went through it about 10 times and now just did it again)..