Questions for you portable gurus..

[dgardner]

Often times I plug in the dwell pro machines to 15 amp breakers. The Duel 6.6 vac motors that is. It usually won't trip for a few hours even though it's running 18-19amps.

Mr. Dwell is right - so I guess I should touch on this. The characteristics of a typical breaker is a curve rather than a hard trip point. With enough of an overload they trip nearly instantaneously, but with smaller and smaller overloads they take some time to trip. The breakers we encounter aren't guaranteed to trip until about 125% - so a 15A breaker may not trip at all until 18A or so, or may take hours to trip. At 19A, the typical curve says the breaker could take anywhere from 150 seconds to 2000 seconds to trip, so you can't count on it to work every time.

Now, the electrical code says (for a 15A outlet, even if on a 20A circuit) you should not connect a load greater than 12A. So - sucking 18A out of that outlet is really pushing things. It stresses all the components (breaker, wiring, connections, outlets) and if they are old or have loose connections the heat buildup could really ruin your day. I just say this so all will realize the liability they are taking on by doing so. Your choice, more power to you! (pun intended). Can you get away with it? Probably.....

I will say that if a manufacturer were to take an appliance to UL to apply for a listing that had a standard 15A cord and drew 18A they would be laughed out of the building. In fact even a 20A cord/plug would be rejected if it drew more than 16A.

 

[rick imby]

With Electric power as the load goes up on an electric motor the amp draw GOES DOWN!. Just the opposite of gas motors where as the rpm starts to drop more gas gets pumped in.

Always have your hoses and wand fully hooked up before powering up your porty. The resistance caused by the size limitation of your wand and the air drag on the inside of the hose decrease the amp draw.

I believe there is a point where too much drag will start to increase the amp draw but I don't know much about this. @dgardner help me out here..

 

[dgardner]

Always have your hoses and wand fully hooked up before powering up your porty. The resistance caused by the size limitation of your wand and the air drag on the inside of the hose decrease the amp draw.

Yes! Having the wand and hoses hooked up will lower the amp draw. So will lowering the solution pressure - if you're in a bind amp-wise and can get by with a little less pressure it will help (but only on the circuit that the pump is connected to, obviously).

With Electric power as the load goes up on an electric motor the amp draw GOES DOWN!.

Well, kinda. It's not that the motor is electric, it's that the vacuum type is centrifugal.

If you hooked up a roots-type PD blower to an electric motor it would behave just like it was hooked to a gas engine in a TM, with amps increasing instead of decreasing. It's the type of airmover, not the type of power that makes the difference.

 

[rick imby]

Yes! Having the wand and hoses hooked up will lower the amp draw. So will lowering the solution pressure - if you're in a bind amp-wise and can get by with a little less pressure it will help (but only on the circuit that the pump is connected to, obviously).



Well, kinda. It's not that the motor is electric, it's that the vacuum type is centrifugal.

If you hooked up a roots-type PD blower to an electric motor it would behave just like it was hooked to a gas engine in a TM, with amps increasing instead of decreasing. It's the type of airmover, not the type of power that makes the difference.

Thanks Dan, I did not know that it only applied to fans.

 

[Art Kelley]

Mr. Dwell is right - so I guess I should touch on this. The characteristics of a typical breaker is a curve rather than a hard trip point. With enough of an overload they trip nearly instantaneously, but with smaller and smaller overloads they take some time to trip. The breakers we encounter aren't guaranteed to trip until about 125% - so a 15A breaker may not trip at all until 18A or so, or may take hours to trip. At 19A, the typical curve says the breaker could take anywhere from 150 seconds to 2000 seconds to trip, so you can't count on it to work every time.

Now, the electrical code says (for a 15A outlet, even if on a 20A circuit) you should not connect a load greater than 12A. So - sucking 18A out of that outlet is really pushing things. It stresses all the components (breaker, wiring, connections, outlets) and if they are old or have loose connections the heat buildup could really ruin your day. I just say this so all will realize the liability they are taking on by doing so. Your choice, more power to you! (pun intended). Can you get away with it? Probably.....

I will say that if a manufacturer were to take an appliance to UL to apply for a listing that had a standard 15A cord and drew 18A they would be laughed out of the building. In fact even a 20A cord/plug would be rejected if it drew more than 16A.

Thanks for that Dan. That is what I suspected. There have been many times I completed a job running my CFX for a couple of hours with no problems, then disconnect my vac hoses and let the vacs run for a while to dry them out, and I trip a breaker. Always a bummer.

 

[Mikey P]

Art does that CFX run off one cord to a 15?

 

[dwellpro]

Mr. Dwell is right - so I guess I should touch on this. The characteristics of a typical breaker is a curve rather than a hard trip point. With enough of an overload they trip nearly instantaneously, but with smaller and smaller overloads they take some time to trip. The breakers we encounter aren't guaranteed to trip until about 125% - so a 15A breaker may not trip at all until 18A or so, or may take hours to trip. At 19A, the typical curve says the breaker could take anywhere from 150 seconds to 2000 seconds to trip, so you can't count on it to work every time.

Now, the electrical code says (for a 15A outlet, even if on a 20A circuit) you should not connect a load greater than 12A. So - sucking 18A out of that outlet is really pushing things. It stresses all the components (breaker, wiring, connections, outlets) and if they are old or have loose connections the heat buildup could really ruin your day. I just say this so all will realize the liability they are taking on by doing so. Your choice, more power to you! (pun intended). Can you get away with it? Probably.....

I will say that if a manufacturer were to take an appliance to UL to apply for a listing that had a standard 15A cord and drew 18A they would be laughed out of the building. In fact even a 20A cord/plug would be rejected if it drew more than 16A.

Are there many machines out there that are UL listed?

The curve of the vac motor performance is important to. With no wand on the hose the amps are peaked 18-19. Add a wand, place it on the surface and the amps drop because the efficiency is now reduced. So most of the times the motors are running at 16amps while cleaning.

 

[Mikey P]

Would think that all the big players be required to be UL listed..

 

[rick imby]

Thanks for that Dan. That is what I suspected. There have been many times I completed a job running my CFX for a couple of hours with no problems, then disconnect my vac hoses and let the vacs run for a while to dry them out, and I trip a breaker. Always a bummer.

Nice Guy Art...
I bring it up and you give all the credit to Dan---my assistant as you may...

Carry on...

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

I just made a final adjustment to my 2 motor portable. On one motor (perfect for upholstery) it hovers around 77-78db's and two motors (they're now in series) with a muffler out the back 80-81 db's. With both motors I get 11"hg. Couldn't be happier.

 

[Goomer]

There is no problem with these situations when using a Dwell1.

I'm my market, your machine would be considered "semi-portable".

 

[rick imby]

Art and Dan, I have thought of putting a throttle on the exhaust of a porty to make sure you are not blowing circuits when you take off the wand but making things more complicated is probably not the way. I believe 95% of the porty carpet cleaners do not know they draw more amps without the wand on.

I believe a properly designed exhaust chamber could increase the suction on the other end---it makes a significant difference in motorcycle and car exhaust---I know there are other issues there but airflow is such a foreign field that so many of us think we understand but don't.

 

[rick imby]

I'm my market, your machine would be considered "semi-portable".

Should work well for Mike Pal... as he will be considered semi-portable too...

 

[rick imby]

I just made a final adjustment to my 2 motor portable. On one motor (perfect for upholstery) it hovers around 77-78db's and two motors (they're now in series) with a muffler out the back 80-81 db's. With both motors I get 11"hg. Couldn't be happier.

You must be running your motors in Series as if they were in Parallel you would not get much lift at all with one motor not running.

 

[Art Kelley]

Art does that CFX run off one cord to a 15?

There is two cords, Mike. One for each vac motor. One cord also has the waste diaphragm pump that draws another 1-2 amps. But neither draws more than 13 amps. This 15 gallon CFX is kickass, and is just the improvement that the original 5 gallon CFX needed. Now there is no waste water blowout ever (unless you forget to turn on the pumpout switch) and you don't even need to prime the waste pump. This is the perfect modular porty. Just two 3 stage vacs at 230 cfms and a waste pump that will push up to 100' of waste hose (I haven't tried further) weighing 40#. I don't use another pumping system for solution aside from customer tap pressure for carpet cleaning, but you can add a 1200 psi pump (modular system) such as the Mytee Water Hog for tile cleaning.

 

[Art Kelley]

Nice Guy Art...
I bring it up and you give all the credit to Dan---my assistant as you may...

Carry on...

Thanks Rick. You are a man among men.

 

[dgardner]

I believe a properly designed exhaust chamber could increase the suction on the other end---it makes a significant difference in motorcycle and car exhaust

I'm not sure it would produce the same gains as seen on internal combustion engines. They produce discreet exhaust 'pulses' which create high and low pressure wave-fronts. The low pressure waves are used to scavenge exhaust gasses out of the cylinder, pull some unburned mixture out, then the reflected high-pressure wave pushes the fresh mixture back into the cylinder before the exhaust valve (or exhaust port) closes, producing a mild supercharging effect. Centrifugal vacs don't produce the pulses, so no pressure wave to scavenge, and since there is no valve timing (or fuel mixture to be burned), a reflected high pressure wave (if there was one) would actually hurt performance.

They also work only for a very narrow RPM range, which is why they are called 'tuned' exhaust systems. Ask a 2-stroke motorcycle rider about being 'on the pipe'.....

Those are just my thoughts - now go create a system to prove me wrong!

 

[rick imby]

I agree Dan it might not change much, but there are many things that have improved performance significantly that confused the engineers.

I do not believe there are many engineers that know much about airflow that are designing the motor compartment of the porties of this world. Stuff as much stuff in that stupid little box under the waste tank so we can sell this thing. Put a hole in the side of that stupid little box so we can get the air out.

Look at what the recent changes in fan blade and housing design have done to increase efficiency (air watts) on electric vac motors in the last few years when they have been making the same ineffective blades for 40 years in the older designs.


Yes they kinda follow the basic ideas of minimal direction and chamber size changes.

I remember when Snowmobiles were required to become quieter. They added an expansion chamber in front of the carburetor and it significantly increased horsepower. accidentally.

This is a combine a bunch of separate machines industry. Instead of integrated designs for the most part.

This forum and that other one have significantly changed the portable market through basic feedback.

I cannot believe Mikey (Vortex/Aerotech Mikey) is actually thinking about a Dodge Caravan, CRB, Rotary extractor and a Porty, with probably a cimex and 175 thrown in for good measure.

I am really excited to see his setup...

 

[rick imby]

Speaking of On the Pipe, one of my son's and I took the Gocart class a couple of years ago in Phoenix. Those carts have like 60 horsepower on the pipe and 7 or 8 horsepower off the pipe. And an extremely narrow power band. What a hoot that was.

 

[rick imby]

@Art Kelley

What length of vac hose do you normally run? Do you normally setup in the bathroom or on the porch or garage? Do you use a wand or a rotary and what flow are you running on your wand? Agitation (besides what I give you) are you using a 175 or orbiter or Nikes?

Thanks

 

[Art Kelley]

@Art Kelley

What length of vac hose do you normally run? Do you normally setup in the bathroom or on the porch or garage? Do you use a wand or a rotary and what flow are you running on your wand? Agitation (besides what I give you) are you using a 175 or orbiter or Nikes?

Thanks

I like to set the CFX outside the front door with a short hose (3-8') always hooked to an external filter like the Mytee one shown:

I will bring 40-90' of 2" hose into the house. I use a 360i for agitation, often using a red or white pad before running the swoop head. The 1 1/2 wand has a 6 flow.

The system is breathtaking in it's simplicity compared to using the TM.

 

[dgardner]

Art, I think you said earlier that you used regular house water pressure instead of a pump. I see a hydroforce in the pic - does it work on house pressure?

 

[Art Kelley]

Yes, most times unless the pressure is very low, in which case even the 360i won't work properly. In that case I put a 220 psi pump (in a little plastic tool box) inline and up the pressure. But lately I've been using pump sprayers, cheap $15 ones I get on Amazon or at Ace hardware. I carry a couple of one gallon, a 1/2 gallon and a 2 gallon of these Chapin models. They're fast and convenient (and did I mention cheap?)

 

[dwellpro]

Would think that all the big players be required to be UL listed..

Check again. Not the case.

 

[dwellpro]

Should work well for Mike Pal... as he will be considered semi-portable too...[/QUOTE

The machine siphones water so it's actually more portable. If you have to carry buckets to your machine then you will carry them 50ft. less with a Dwell1. 100ft. less with a Dwell2. Please let me know of this situation where you have no water source within 100ft. In my 15 years of surface cleaning I've never seen such a job.

 

[rick imby]

I was referring to Mikey as being semi portable...
Big head, feet and overall.

It was Goomer calling your machine semi...

 

[rick imby]

Art, I see you are using a pickup with topper. I assume the CFX in the picture the 15 gallon, not the 15 gallon with the 26 gallon water tank?

So are you a couple jobs a day guy? or are you hammering out 3 to 6 a day?

Your setup does looks simple, I can see why you use it.

Not having the stink of the carpet gear inside the passenger compartment has got to be a joy also.

Thanks for displaying your setup.

 

[Art Kelley]

Art, I see you are using a pickup with topper. I assume the CFX in the picture the 15 gallon, not the 15 gallon with the 26 gallon water tank?

So are you a couple jobs a day guy? or are you hammering out 3 to 6 a day?

.

Yes, the CFX is just the vacuum machine with a 15 gallon waste reservoir. I only use the Ford Ranger setup if my TM is in the repair shop. It can be a real PIA to do my normal 3-5 job workload with just the porty; I like to use the TM on jobs that benefit from the increased heat and psi and vac that the Pro1200 provides. It's exhausting but it's nice that I have this simple, inexpensive backup system and I don't reschedule jobs.

 

[Willy P]

Good lord Willy...

Was that your dried up sense of humor in the bottom of that blue bucket?

Nope, but I REALLY REALLY hate someone calling me a pussy. Its just one of those things that really burn my ass. That and dealing with a stroked out mother in law, father in law with liver cancer, wife barely holding it together, harvoni side effects......makes Willy a grumpy man.

 

[Desk Jockey]

What a pussy!

Sorry to hear that man. That's just awful nothing you can do, you feel so helpless. I pray for strength for both you & your wife. Take care Willy.