Sapphire 570 nothing but problems

[Jim Martin]

Since it's an intermittent problem, how long are you going to run it before you pronounce the issue resolved?

Did you mention Jeff's issues to Sapphire?

Yes and if this works he will be taken care of.....it is faster to get one to me and let me check it to be sure then to get one up to him.....
I can tell with in 2 jobs if it will work....and after talking to Rick...I am pretty sure it will...we just want to be sure..........

 

[GeneMiller]

I just talked with Rick from Sapphire...he is pretty sure that he knows what it is...and is going to get me a part out on Monday.........
should be a simple fix.......stay tuned..........

My friends machine would show pressure until you pull the trigger then almost nothing. Checked the pump and it was putting out full pressure. Turned out the heat exchanger wasvalmost completely blocked.


Gene

 

[Able 1]

What are the HX'ers made out of? I descaled one of my Prochems, once..

 

[Able 1]

On Prochems this issue would either be the pressure regulator, or the demand pump not filling the box..

 

[dgardner]

On Prochems this issue would either be the pressure regulator, or the demand pump not filling the box..

The Sapphire machines are a different animal, the waterbox is pressurized to 15 psi, and also functions as a heat exchanger.

 

[Able 1]

So, it needs the pressure because the pump is mounted up higher then the water box?

 

[dgardner]

So, it needs the pressure because the pump is mounted up higher then the water box?

The Sapphire manual doesn't say why, but It is probably to prevent cavitation at the pump inlet.

Pumps require a certain NPSH (net positive suction head) at the inlet or the pump will cavitate. As the temperature increases toward the liquid's boiling point the required NPSH increases. In the Sapphire machines the incoming water is preheated in an engine-coolant HX before going to the waterbox (which itself adds heat). The pump is ingesting warm water, so there has to be more inlet pressure than normal to prevent cavitation.

That's my thought anyway - perhaps the Sapphire folks will correct me if I'm way off....

 

[Desk Jockey]

Dan doesn't it sound like it is cavitating though?

 

[dgardner]

Dan doesn't it sound like it is cavitating though?

That's the $64 question, isn't it? It's certainly possible. Still doesn't tell us why though. Sounds like the Sapphire folks may have it figured out, let's hope so.

 

[Jim Martin]

according to Rick......she needs to let off some steam........when it lost pressure it did not go into cavitation......it was already there......the water box was heating up and creating steam pressure.....as I used the water it was being replaced with steam..so I had half water and half steam and according to the valve....pressure is pressure...it cant tell the difference.........so I am cleaning...thermvalve is in over load and I only have half a tank.......and then its gone....and I have steam .........we are going to add a breather...

I have said from the beginning this thing can crank out some heat.....when it is running...it is a beast...I don't know if it is because we are getting hot here and it is effecting it...(?)...its 9 pm and still 81 out side...and the last few days have been pretty warm.....(?).....What Rick said makes perfect since...we will see........

 

[dgardner]

Jim, by breather do you mean an automatic vent, the type that opens to purge vapor and closes as soon as the vessel is completely filled with water? That would make sense...

 

[Able 1]

Water to the pump should be under 180 degrees(or I've been told). The main heating should normally be done after the pump, no?

 

[dgardner]

Depends on the pump, some are rated higher than others, and some can be furnished with high-temp kits.

The beauty of preheating (up to a point, as you say) is that the components don't have to withstand extreme pressure. This provides two benfits. One, low pressure doodads are not as expensive to manufacture. Two, the walls (tubing, shell) can be thinner which improves heat transfer and thus efficiency.

Preheating to the point of steam, not so much....

 

[Ray Burnfield]

Are we talking about a 570 or Thermalwave?
There is a regulator on the 570 that is built in the machine. Something is preventing the heat box to fill correctly.
If it has a pressure cap on the box, you cantake it off and fill it up, put the cap back on and see if your pump comes back

 

[Able 1]

Well, they might have EXTREAM high temp pumps, but my cat pump has high temp seals rated for 180 degrees.. Why a company would think to "revolutionize" a preheating system is stupid! They should have put the money in AFTER the pump IMO.. These pumps aren't going to last, just wait!

 

[Ray Burnfield]

There's a lot of them that have been out for 5+ years and we haven't seen abnormal pump issues.

 

[dgardner]

The general HTS2016S is (according to General) rated to 185F maximum inlet temp. In the pump manual, they have a little table that illustrates what I said earlier, the higher the temp, the more pressure you need at the inlet:

View attachment 4523

 

[Able 1]

"There's a lot of them that have been out for 5+ years and we haven't seen abnormal pump issues."
Same thing Cobb says about Ace units..

 

[dgardner]

Are we talking about a 570 or Thermalwave?
There is a regulator on the 570 that is built in the machine. Something is preventing the heat box to fill correctly.
If it has a pressure cap on the box, you cantake it off and fill it up, put the cap back on and see if your pump comes back

Yeow, taking the pressure cap off of a vessel half filled with steam and half with boiling water could be quite an adventure....

According to Jim (and it makes sense) the water in the box is flashing to steam, at 15 psi. The regulator doesn't know or care whether the 15 psi is water or steam - if the pressure is there the reg is happy and won't let any more water in.

And feeding the pump with near boiling water at 15psi is guaranteed to cavitate - if one doesn't get you the other will!

 

[Able 1]

The general HTS2016S is (according to General) rated to 185F maximum inlet temp. In the pump manual, they have a little table that illustrates what I said earlier, the higher the temp, the more pressure you need at the inlet:

View attachment 4523

Well, we are past that with boiling water(212 degrees) in the box, right?

 

[dgardner]

Most likely.....

 

[ruff]

The older version has a float in the "water box". If you have high incoming water pressure the float can stick.
Get a 40psi pressure regulator and put it on the water fill QD.

Where do you get the pressure regulator?

 

[Desk Jockey]

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/watts-pressure-regulator

 

[hogjowl]

This is the second or third issue I've seen with a Sapphire unit in as many months. The common problem seems to not be the unit, but the distributor each time. Sure, each one had a technical problem the needed fixing, but the issues were quickly resolved, or in this case competent factory technicians were engaged, once the distributors were bypassed.

I'm thinking Sapphire may need to do some weeding of their network.

 

[Jim Martin]

This is the second or third issue I've seen with a Sapphire unit in as many months. The common problem seems to not be the unit, but the distributor each time. Sure, each one had a technical problem the needed fixing, but the issues were quickly resolved, or in this case competent factory technicians were engaged, once the distributors were bypassed.

I'm thinking Sapphire may need to do some weeding of their network.

go take your nap...everything is under control here.............

 

[Desk Jockey]

Itz hiz hemorrhoidz, when they flare up porkchop becomes a real ASS.

Give him a few days and he will he his usual sweet cuddly self.

Yea right.............when pigs fly!

 

[dgardner]

Marty, have a Snickers....

[video=youtube_share;QbElUCDVubU]http://youtu.be/QbElUCDVubU[/video]

 

[joey895]

Jim

I'm curious if Sapphire called you yesterday or you called them?

Sent from my Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk.

 

[Jim Martin]

I have been talking with sapphire for the last few days................

 

[GeneMiller]

Well, they might have EXTREAM high temp pumps, but my cat pump has high temp seals rated for 180 degrees.. Why a company would think to "revolutionize" a preheating system is stupid! They should have put the money in AFTER the pump IMO.. These pumps aren't going to last, just wait!

the water enters my pump hot . no problems with it at all. its the first pump that I've had that didn't run the chemicals through. all those pumps i had to replace seals as regular maintenance. mine also made to much hot water and i dropped the sensor from a 180 to either 160 or 140 now i can't remember. the temp in the water box on top is around 180 now. the sensor is on the outside and doesn't regulate the water temp accurately. it was boiling before and the pump would get some cavitation. you can lay a line on the ground and let it run just a little and that will solve the problem until you get the part. thats how i took care of it until i changed the temp sensor.

gene