used water box

[TConway]

James,
As for the Vac R valve, even if you are at lower RPMs say HALF Throttle, if you were to block the intake vac port on the machine the vacuum SHOULD go up to 10-13" if NOT then there is a leak somewhere....there has to be, OR your belts are slipping.
If blower is in good shape it HAS TO PULL AIR it has NO CHOICE if the VR is NOT opening, and you have NO LEAKS even that motor would LUG or show a sign of load. Positive Displacement or PD means just that if it is to the right specs inside of the blower, it HAS TO pull air.
The VR is there to relieve vac so that major damage DOES NOT happen in the case of full blockage...Snap the belts, or worse the shaft of the blower.
The spring VR valves are NOT the best at making a true seal....I have a PC Legend and my VR valve bolt is tightened up to when full throttle is on it will go up to 15-16 Hgs my small motor really starts to feel to load but it will hit the number, but if you take a biz card or plastic furniture tab it will still suck up to the holes even when it is not under very much vacuum.....they leak air.
Now if blower is worn it becomes more like a portable electric motor and will still make vac but will only create so much and continue to spin in its own vortex, it just cant compress the air anymore due to internal wear.
I would check this process if you haven't already
1 Check to see if belts are slipping
2 No air leaks from dump valve, or dump hose to tank, any bung or ports on waste tank for auto pump out are sealed
3 No air leaks from vac hose port to tank
4 No air leaks on waste tank gasket.
5 No air leaks in hose from waste tank to blower.
I didn't hear to much of a drop in RPMs on motor when you blocked VR valve some and when you hooked vac hose up it went up to 5-6 that is pretty normal if that was 50-100 feet of hose with that size blower.
I think you still have leak somewhere because that was plenty of RPMs from the sound of it and no real motor lug.

 

[TConway]

Im just saying leak or belt slippage...because on my vwtm I had my free flow valve shut TOO much and my hose sucked to baseboard and BROKE a 1" solid bolt right off the end of my crankshaft due to the blowers not having enough vac relief.
Blowers are very powerful and no way belts would last if it was not getting air

 

[BIG WOOD]

Here's another suggestion.

When the previous owner shut down the machine and went through the WD40process, he might've shut it down right after he sprayed, instead of leaving it blocked at full throttle for 30seconds after he sprayed. If that was a the case, it could've created a greasy film over the blower's components, which causes less air movement.

That's where some parts need to be taken off to get access to the lobes on the blower to see the condition of them.

 

[dgardner]

a greasy film over the blower's components, which causes less air movement

I don't get it - can you explain? Anything that coats the lobes and/or housing would just reduce clearances, which would improve the seal and increase airflow/vacuum IMO.

 

[BIG WOOD]

I don't get it - can you explain? Anything that coats the lobes and/or housing would just reduce clearances, which would improve the seal and increase airflow/vacuum IMO.

Jondon told me this when I bought my Titan. He said that if I don't burn that wd40 out of the blower, that it'll get caked with s grease like substance and I'll lose performance in suction

 

[BIG WOOD]

@billyeadon , mike in Florida told me this when he was instructing me how to shut down my Titan at the end of the day

 

[TConway]

Jondon told me this when I bought my Titan. He said that if I don't burn that wd40 out of the blower, that it'll get caked with s grease like substance and I'll lose performance in suction

I believe what happens is the WD40 when left heavy in blower then builds a layer that can then collect crap fine silt, I have a blower that looks to have had this same problem, as the layers built up they actually ate away at the clearances of the lobes, and at the one end of the blower housing.
Why the blower didn't get hot enough to burn it off I don't know, or maybe the blower was hot wd was injected and then shut off and cooked to the lobes and caused build up. I tried to use it.....it is now completly locked up and broke teeth off the gears

 

[BIG WOOD]

I believe what happens is the WD40 when left heavy in blower then builds a layer that can then collect crap fine silt, I have a blower that looks to have had this same problem, as the layers built up they actually ate away at the clearances of the lobes, and at the one end of the blower housing.
Why the blower didn't get hot enough to burn it off I don't know, or maybe the blower was hot wd was injected and then shut off and cooked to the lobes and caused build up. I tried to use it.....it is now completly locked up and broke teeth off the gears

That's why I was told to leave it wide open at 12hg for 30seconds. From the way I was told, a lot of people just shut it down right after they spray it, which doesn't burn it off.

 

[SamIam]

I think he sets the rpm's correctly puts on new belts then will see if there's anything else to work on.

 

[Jamesh921]

So, here's where I am today. I have gone thru the machine, pulled every hose, looked into the blower, checked the vac tank and I can find NO BLOCKAGE at all. I have also checked for vac leaks at all those locations as well. I've also installed a new waste take gasket. I cannot find a vac leak anywhere.
I called the Kubota dealership and asked if they could check and set the RPMs for me but was told that since the Kubota motor was installed in a Prochem machine, they didn't have the "specs for it" and couldn't service it. Huh?????
OK, so I take it to my local small engine repair guy and he says, "no problem, we'll check it for you".
He has this round disc looking thing (he didn't tell me what it was called) that he says senses the vibrations of the motor and that it will tell him what RPMs the machine is turning. According to him, the TM is running at 2900 RPMs (which tells ME that someone had possibly been tampering with the RPMs because the factory sets them at 2700).
Anyway, if his gismo is telling the truth and the machine is running at 2900 RPMs, then the only logical explanations would be that the belts are slipping or the blower is weak. Right???
And if the belts were slipping, wouldn't they be making noise or burning up by now?

This leads me to believe that their is a problem with the blower, as some have suggested. So, how do I test the blower?

 

[Cleanworks]

So, here's where I am today. I have gone thru the machine, pulled every hose, looked into the blower, checked the vac tank and I can find NO BLOCKAGE at all. I have also checked for vac leaks at all those locations as well. I've also installed a new waste take gasket. I cannot find a vac leak anywhere.
I called the Kubota dealership and asked if they could check and set the RPMs for me but was told that since the Kubota motor was installed in a Prochem machine, they didn't have the "specs for it" and couldn't service it. Huh?????
OK, so I take it to my local small engine repair guy and he says, "no problem, we'll check it for you".
He has this round disc looking thing (he didn't tell me what it was called) that he says senses the vibrations of the motor and that it will tell him what RPMs the machine is turning. According to him, the TM is running at 2900 RPMs (which tells ME that someone had possibly been tampering with the RPMs because the factory sets them at 2700).
Anyway, if his gismo is telling the truth and the machine is running at 2900 RPMs, then the only logical explanations would be that the belts are slipping or the blower is weak. Right???
And if the belts were slipping, wouldn't they be making noise or burning up by now?

This leads me to believe that their is a problem with the blower, as some have suggested. So, how do I test the blower?

or the vac relief valve is seized or broken. test the vacuum with an independent vacuum gauge and see what it is pulling.

 

[Able 1]

As, hard and unbelievable as it is the last guy might have wrecked the blower.. It would take extreme neglecte at 900 hours to wreck a blower!! Freezing shouldn't hurt the blower... Never had a bad blower!! Do they make noise when they go out?

 

[Able 1]

A couple years ago, I fired up my Peak outside of my van.. I had a pack of smokes sitting on the blower it sucked it through and spit it out like a wood chipper! Wd40 is stupid,again..

 

[BIG WOOD]

After all this 6 pages of us trying to find out if there's a problem, you still haven't replaced the belts yet????

Dude, that's maybe a 30minute job. Why haven't you done that yet? The belts and the vac relief should be replaced just so you can take that off the list of maybe's

 

[dgardner]

James, since you just bought the machine used and are not familiar with it's past:

• As others have suggested, you need to get a vacuum gauge and make sure the machine's gauge is reading correctly. It would not be unusual for it to be wrong.
• I wonder if the previous owner maybe changed the pulley size and the blower is not turning at the design rpm even though the engine is? As I and others have suggested, get a photo tachometer, that will allow you to check the blower rpm directly and detect slipping belts and/or wrong pulley ratio.
• Blower issues are usually bad bearings, broken gears, things like that. They make noise and let you know that something's very wrong. For the lobes/housing to be so trashed that the airflow/vacuum is so severely low yet not make bad noises would be pretty rare. Have you removed the inlet/outlet piping and looked inside?
• OK, grasping at straws now. Have you made sure your waste tank dump valve is closed and not leaking air?

 

[SamIam]

What there's a bad dump valve?

 

[SamIam]

 

[Shane T]

Based on your video it seems to me that the engine is turning fast enough (regardless if it is to specs or not). I did hear a whistle which might suggest a restriction or leak.
Assuming-
-You don't have any leaks on the vacuum side of the system
-Your belts are good and tight
-It is very unlikely that there is anything wrong with the blower
Then I would check the discharge side of the system
-Blower filters
-Heat exchangers
-Silencer
-Discharge (exhaust pipe out the front of the machine)
You mentioned in an earlier post that you would look at the heat exchangers. Did you do that?

 

[BIG WOOD]

I think we're all OCD on making sure our blowers are working 100% or this thread would've died 4 pages ago, lol

 

[Jamesh921]

OK, here are my answers...

or the vac relief valve is seized or broken. test the vacuum with an independent vacuum gauge and see what it is pulling.

The vac relief valve is operating normally. I can manually push it in with my finger when the machine is under load, but when I let it go, it closes up again. No air leak.
I live in the STICKS. It's an hour and a half drive to OKC. But, I'd be happy to test the vacuum with and independent vacuum gauge - if I had one. I 'did' ask the mgr @ PCS last week if he could test the cfm on my machine and he said no. I guess he doesn't have an independent vacuum gauge either.

As, hard and unbelievable as it is the last guy might have wrecked the blower.. It would take extreme neglecte at 900 hours to wreck a blower!! Freezing shouldn't hurt the blower... Never had a bad blower!! Do they make noise when they go out?

As I mentioned before, I'm not confident that that hour meter is "honest". But, I have no way of proving that it's wrong. I can only go by what it says.
I had the blower on my Powermatic go out a few years ago. Never made a sound, it just seized in the middle of a cleaning.

After all this 6 pages of us trying to find out if there's a problem, you still haven't replaced the belts yet????

Dude, that's maybe a 30minute job. Why haven't you done that yet? The belts and the vac relief should be replaced just so you can take that off the list of maybe's

I'm going thru these issues as best I can. I don't just clean carpet & tile, I'm also a flooring installer, which takes the majority of my time. Carpet & tile cleaning accounts for only 24% of my business. I rarely get home before dark and I don't have a shop/garage. Weekends are the only time I have to devote time to working on this machine. And, of course, all the CC shops/mechanics are closed on weekends. So, I do what I can when I can. Plus, there's a whole other back-story to this van/machine that I purchased, but to keep it short, let me just say that I've already spent over $2,000 on a rig that was suppose to be "ready to clean, in good shape and has no issues" (that's what the seller told me anyway). So, I can't just keep throwing money at it without knowing "where" to throw it.

James, since you just bought the machine used and are not familiar with it's past:

• As others have suggested, you need to get a vacuum gauge and make sure the machine's gauge is reading correctly. It would not be unusual for it to be wrong.
• The Vac gauge isn't wrong. Or, at least it's not far off. I can confidently say that, not because of scientific measuring devices, but from real life experience.
• When I clean my own personal carpet in MY house with my Powermatic (which I've done several times over the past 15 years), I get an average drying time of 2 hours or less. This past weekend I cleaned them with the Apex and it took almost 5 hours to dry. I used the same chems, wand, hoses, etc and cleaned in the same environment as before, so this tells me there is a problem with the ability to remove moisture from the carpet.
• 
  
• I wonder if the previous owner maybe changed the pulley size and the blower is not turning at the design rpm even though the engine is? As I and others have suggested, get a photo tachometer, that will allow you to check the blower rpm directly and detect slipping belts and/or wrong pulley ratio.
• I certainly didn't think about someone changing the pully size. Unlikely, but anything's possible.
• 
  
• Blower issues are usually bad bearings, broken gears, things like that. They make noise and let you know that something's very wrong. For the lobes/housing to be so trashed that the airflow/vacuum is so severely low yet not make bad noises would be pretty rare. Have you removed the inlet/outlet piping and looked inside?
• Yes. I've checked for obstructions everywhere. I have looked in the inlet and outlet but can't see anything unfamiliar.
• 
  
• OK, grasping at straws now. Have you made sure your waste tank dump valve is closed and not leaking air?
• OK, you made me LOL on that one. I'm not a mechanical genius, but I DID check that one off the list in the beginning.

Based on your video it seems to me that the engine is turning fast enough (regardless if it is to specs or not). I did hear a whistle which might suggest a restriction or leak.
Assuming-
-You don't have any leaks on the vacuum side of the system
-Your belts are good and tight
-It is very unlikely that there is anything wrong with the blower
Then I would check the discharge side of the system
-Blower filters
-Heat exchangers
-Silencer
-Discharge (exhaust pipe out the front of the machine)
You mentioned in an earlier post that you would look at the heat exchangers. Did you do that?

Yes, the heat exchangers were pulled and checked. They were VERY clean. However, the little metal cooling fins were damaged in a few places, which leads me to believe that someone had pulled and cleaned them in the past - possibly trying to fix the same issue I'm currently dealing with.
All the other issues you mentioned I have also dealt with except replacing the belts, which I will do this weekend. But, at this point, I still believe it is the blower. I hope I'm wrong.

I think we're all OCD on making sure our blowers are working 100% or this thread would've died 4 pages ago, lol

Matt, you certainly nailed that one on the head for sure..

 

[dgardner]

I certainly didn't think about someone changing the pully size. Unlikely, but anything's possible.

James, the Apex manual says (for the gas version) that when the engine is turning at max rpm of 2740 the blower should be turning at 3100 rpm. This means that the engine pulley should be a little bigger diameter than the one on the blower.

The manual lists a standard part number for the blower pulley (2TB64) so we know how big it should be. It has an overall diameter of 6-3/4 inches. The one on the engine should be bigger, around 7-1/2 inches (approximate, no standard part number given). You can check them with a tape measure and eliminate one possibility.

 

[Jamesh921]

Thank you for that info Dan. I'll check it this weekend. Don't know what kind of idiot would change the blower pulley to make it run slower, but we shall see.

 

[dgardner]

Agreed, it would be unusual and I doubt that's your issue.

 

[SamIam]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000CPINHA/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Cleanworks]

OK, here are my answers...



The vac relief valve is operating normally. I can manually push it in with my finger when the machine is under load, but when I let it go, it closes up again. No air leak.
I live in the STICKS. It's an hour and a half drive to OKC. But, I'd be happy to test the vacuum with and independent vacuum gauge - if I had one. I 'did' ask the mgr @ PCS last week if he could test the cfm on my machine and he said no. I guess he doesn't have an independent vacuum gauge either.



As I mentioned before, I'm not confident that that hour meter is "honest". But, I have no way of proving that it's wrong. I can only go by what it says.
I had the blower on my Powermatic go out a few years ago. Never made a sound, it just seized in the middle of a cleaning.



I'm going thru these issues as best I can. I don't just clean carpet & tile, I'm also a flooring installer, which takes the majority of my time. Carpet & tile cleaning accounts for only 24% of my business. I rarely get home before dark and I don't have a shop/garage. Weekends are the only time I have to devote time to working on this machine. And, of course, all the CC shops/mechanics are closed on weekends. So, I do what I can when I can. Plus, there's a whole other back-story to this van/machine that I purchased, but to keep it short, let me just say that I've already spent over $2,000 on a rig that was suppose to be "ready to clean, in good shape and has no issues" (that's what the seller told me anyway). So, I can't just keep throwing money at it without knowing "where" to throw it.



Matt, you certainly nailed that one on the head for sure..

The dealer cannot test your cfm. He can only test the inches of lift with a test gauge. When talking with the dealer, make sure you are both talking about the same thing. I know you have spent some money on this already but I think you should drop it off at the prochem dealer and let him go over it. Set a price cap and have him call you if it is going to be over it. Otherwise, you could play around with it for the next ten years and still not solve the problem

 

[Jamesh921]

OK I checked the belts. They seemed fine, but I went ahead and tightened them a little anyway. Also checked the pulley diameters and they were right where Dan said they should be.
So, I'm pretty confident that the blower is hurt. If someone were to say, be working a flood job and submerge the vac hose/wand into the water, not letting enough air enter the system to cool the blower therefore overheating it, could that be the cause of the lack in power?

 

[Cleanworks]

Your vac relief should open and your belts would probably burn before you hurt the blower but it's possible.

 

[dgardner]

If someone were to say, be working a flood job and submerge the vac hose/wand into the water, not letting enough air enter the system to cool the blower therefore overheating it, could that be the cause of the lack in power?

No. Blocking off the vac port to preheat the system or to inject wd40 is completely normal and in the manuals for pretty much all TM's. That's what the relief is for, and you have found the relief to work fine.

So, I'm pretty confident that the blower is hurt.

Highly doubtful.

You have had several suggestions that would allow you to make accurate measurements, yet you insist that you can tell just by feel. Keith even offered to take a look, and the suggestion was made to have a Prochem dealer go over it. I'm beginning to think you don't really want help with finding the issue(s), if there are indeed any. I certainly hope you get your situation resolved, but it's doubtful anyone here is going to be of much use in finding the true issue.

BTW, what happened with your original issue? did you find a used waterbox, or did you bite the bullet and just buy a new one?

 

[Jamesh921]

Dan,
Aside for ordering the gauges from the internet that Sam suggested, I have done "everything" that these fine folks have suggested. So, I have no idea where you got that assumption.
And as for Keith's offer to take a look at it, did you happen to notice the he lives in WISCONSIN and I live in Oklahoma? It's not geographically or economically viable.

The water box - the seller saw my post on here about it and had a new one sent to me from JonDon. I installed it myself and it is working great. It's nice to have a van/machine that doesn't flood every time I use it.

 

[Cleanworks]

Just a crazy thought here. you have 2 vacuum ports so you can dual wand. Have you blocked off the port not being used?