If you believe that HWE is NOT STEAM CLEANING...

[Dolly Llama]

welp, Shawn, we can dance around if you want, but I'm really slow.
Just a dumb BDCC.
I thought this debate was about dollars and $en$ne on your numbers

so lets hash out a little more and see if you can answer questions directly.
(I promise I will too)
lets take it one point at a time, if we can.
Like i said, I'm real slow and not as smart as you..

so, does Billy own his equipment at the end of the lease?
and how many years is the lease?

does Mortie own his TM at the end of his lease?
if not, how much is his buy out and what is the length of term?

let's get those numbers out there in the light.
Mortie's V used sale price isn't relevant unless the "net" worth is greater than Billy's TM that he owns.
(should I dig up some best case scenario figures of what Billy's TM and van sold for?)


we can debate intangibles latter.
(he11, we can get Ricky Cimex and John G here and they can tell us how their peeps make $300+ an hour for a $3000 dollar investment if intangibles are what you want to debate.

Instead, for right now,
let's add up some real numbers first before we get to intangibles.

These are "your" numbers you put up and asked about.
Lets get down to bid'ness.
I suggest you're leaving out far to many important details in your figures

..L.T.A.

 

[gasaxe]

welp, Shawn, we can dance around if you want, but I'm really slow.
Just a dumb BDCC.
I thought this debate was about dollars and $en$ne on your numbers

so lets hash out a little more and see if you can answer questions directly.
(I promise I will too)
lets take it one point at a time, if we can.
Like i said, I'm real slow and not as smart as you..

so, does Billy own his equipment at the end of the lease?
and how many years is the lease?

does Mortie own his TM at the end of his lease?
if not, how much is his buy out and what is the length of term?

let's get those numbers out there in the light.
Mortie's V used sale price isn't relevant unless the "net" worth is greater than Billy's TM that he owns.
(should I dig up some best case scenario figures of what Billy's TM and van sold for?)


we can debate intangibles latter.
(he11, we can get Ricky Cimex and John G here and they can tell us how their peeps make $300+ an hour for a $3000 dollar investment if intangibles are what you want to debate.

Instead, for right now,
let's add up some real numbers first before we get to intangibles.

These are "your" numbers you put up and asked about.
Lets get down to bid'ness.
I suggest you're leaving out far to many important details in your figures

..L.T.A.

show us your numbers....im really interested to see your side of the argument ....i mean debate..


I dont buy the cimex etc argument now your talking two different methods of cleaning which opens a whole nother can o worms!!!

 

[Dolly Llama]

Brian, I don't have any "numbers" here.

we're debating whether Shawn's are accurate.
HE put them up to debate, not me.

we need to get past one little point about cost and "net" worth at the end of Mortie and Billy's lease.
I suspect Billy owns his outfit at the end of 60 months.
Not so for Mortie at the end of 72?, 84? month lease.

that's no small detail to the equation.

I appreciate your input though.
I promise I have nothing against you or the other V/AT owners.

However, misleading marketing is repugnant to me no matter who it comes from

...L.T.A.

 

[gasaxe]

Brian, I don't have any "numbers" here.

we're debating whether Shawn's are accurate.
HE put them up to debate, not me.

we need to get past one little point about cost and "net" worth at the end of Mortie and Billy's lease.
I suspect Billy owns his outfit at the end of 60 months.
Not so for Mortie at the end of 72?, 84? month lease.

that's no small detail to the equation.

I appreciate your input though.
I promise I have nothing against you or the other V/AT owners.


However, misleading marketing is repugnant to me no matter who it comes from

...L.T.A.

im definately not arguing with you... im relatively young and very willing to learn so please dont take my post in a confrontational sort of way...


you keep mentioning lease... i dont read that they are leasing anywhere in that example

some quick checking between kbb and interlink

new chevy 3500 is 26 to 28 g's new add in a prochem everest 650 at 27 g's from ilink....

v shows 85 g's sugg. retail from ilink

not figuring interest (too late for that)

the chevy/prochem is about 900 month on 60 months

the v is about 1400 month on 60 months

i know that interest is gonna compound some more on the 85 compared to 54 but by those quick numbers the payments in shawns example seem to be pretty reallistic....

splain to me the error of my ways....

im by no means taking one side over the other i would be hard pressed to buy either one brand new seeing as how vehicles depreciate so bad in the first couple of years...
I think most owner operators would be better off buying a gently used rig no matter the size..

if i was dropping 1500 a month on my truck it would be mine in 2yrs or less.... that is if that detroit/vm dont take shitz any time soon.....reminds me gotta put a coolant temp shut off on it before these arkansas summers hit...

 

[Dolly Llama]

you keep mentioning lease... i dont read that they are leasing anywhere in that example

just an ASSumption on my part, Brain.
Maybe Shawn would clarify for us.
That would make adding up "realistic" numbers much easier.

..L.T.A.

 

[gasaxe]

you keep mentioning lease... i dont read that they are leasing anywhere in that example

just an ASSumption on my part, Brain.
Maybe Shawn would clarify for us.
That would make adding up "realistic" numbers much easier.

..L.T.A.

"just an ASSumption on my part, Brain."


brain...lol that happens to me alot ive also been called a smartASS too..lol

 

[Rex Tyus]

you keep mentioning lease... i dont read that they are leasing anywhere in that example

There is an AWFUL lot you are not reading in that post......when details are left out it is usually by design.

 

[Rex Tyus]

OK just so I know what to look for, What is the actual debate?

1)Whether the V is the correct choice in certain circumstance?
2) If it is ever the right choice?
3)If the V would always be the right choice?
4)or if the V will solve all your problems?

Or what Larry first questioned

what do you want to debate?
single wand vs dual?
TMs w/over capacity for the average O/OP or multi-truck outfit?

I would hate to see the lines get blurred.

 

[Dolly Llama]

"However, misleading marketing is repugnant to me no matter who it comes from "

You best follow you're own advice and go do some studying for a couple of weeks Larry.

Jackass.

well phooey, Shawn.
if you'd just clarify and stop being so coy for some reason??

they're your numbers for crying out loud.
why refuse to give the details so we can move on to another point?


makes me think of the ole line,

"figures don't lie
Liars figure"


bed time now.
Won't be back til tomorrow evening
oh yea, that's MR. Jackass to you sonny

ps..I like the way the dance too.
can you moon walk like Micheal Jackson?


...L.T.A.

 

[Rex Tyus]

Thanks Rex.

It's # 1

I'll debate with you instead.

The next obvious question is WHAT are the right circumstances and WHEN is the right time?

I don't know why you would want to debate me. I already know when it would be beneficial to make that move and when it would NOT.

I am a spectator in this bloodsport. I will say if #1 is the choice your scenario doesn't apply. It would take a pretty naive person to fall for that particular comparison.

It really pains me to make a post and bail but it is Mothers Day weekend and if I get caught on here I will never get a big truck. My wife will cut my allowance. :shock:

See you guys Sunday night.

 

[truckmount girl]

Thanks Rex.

It's # 1

Well, in that case, I don't think there is anything to debate. Certainly a V might be the best choice in certain circumstances. In certain circumstances a portable or a jiggler would be the best choice...in certain circumstances a good, used machine would be best...we all agree on that. The factors are endless....what if the scenario with Billy and Scooter is taking place in NY City, or Honolulu?? They both better re-think things, because finding secure, legal parking and running hoses up 50 stories is going to be a real PITA, isn't it? They'd do better with a Host machine, OP or porty.

Now move them to the suburbs of Phoenix...whole different scenario. Rural Idaho mountains....you get my drift.

The hours on the machine and # of jobs per month may be unrealistic. The population of the area, it's socio-economic condition, the balance of residential, multi-family and commercial all play into the amount of work available.

I also don't believe that "a V is the correct choice in certain circumstances" is the point you are trying to make with the numbers in the ad, Shawn.

Establish a relative and clear topic to debate, if a debate is what you want. Otherwise just say you are looking for a way to kick each other in the nuts via keyboard and be done with it.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[gasaxe]

Establish a relative and clear topic to debate, if a debate is what you want. Otherwise just say you are looking for a way to kick each other in the nuts via keyboard and be done with it.

now why do you wana go and start talking about kicking people in the nuts....lol

 

[B&BGaryC]

Virtual bean-shots. There may be some money in that...

I'm going to talk to my Web-Guru friend about launching "Turkey-Tap.Com"
I'm sure once the site got enough hits I could sell banner adds.

 

[Dolly Llama]

They both put down $5k. They both have a 60 month note. They both pay 10% interest. They both have a zero buy out. "Apples to apples".

Makes no difference.

makes no difference???
makes no difference that you numbers are fantasy numbers and not real?

$85K financed for 60 months at 10% interest is more than $1500 pr month that you have in your sOOpy sAles ad.

I've never suggested there isn't a place that the capacity of a V/AT makes makes $en$e for "some"

My issue is that the numbers in your ad don't tell the whole $tory.
(you brought them up in this thread)
Matter of fact, lets see if the slick salesman in you will allow for some HONEST number$, instead of the phony bull-oney number$ you toss out

BTW, $85K minus $5K down = $80K at 10% for 60 months is $1700 pr month payment
(according to edmans.com auto loan calculator)
we haven't included taxes yet either

I don't know how to cut & paste on this lap top, or I'd post a link


I think we need to start on a clean sheet of paper and work these figures together for "real"



..L.T.A.

 

[Dolly Llama]

No.

I have no intentions of participating in the above *(Now below) thread. You've asked twice and I said no both times. Nice try though. What happened to your 2 week timeout for serious time and research before the debate?

I didn't need the time out to address some of the GLARING flaws in your silliness.

You refuse to debate YOUR numbers because they're ALL WET and don't hold up to scrutiny.

I don't have any numbers.
But will be glad to compare some on the clean sheet in the new thread.
Like I said, we'll run the numbers using REAL numbers and let the chips fall where they may.

I suspect using HONEST figures will show quite a different cost analysis on the bottom line.

Figures don't lie
Liars figure

..L.T.A.

 

[Dolly Llama]

2. A few weeks ago I asked Mikey to show you and several others a case scenario I was developing regarding fuel prices, productivity, single vs. dual wand etc... Your response to it was that I was "full of Shiet" and that "only a "dumbass would buy into my silly song and dance." My request is that you please explain the error of my logic and why I'm full of sheite.

I'll be back as soon as you post your "more accurate" numbers.

the error of logic is what I'm pointing out, Shawn.
actully, not logic, erronious figures is what you started with to make it "fit" your bottom line.
Your numbers are bogus and don't reflect reality.
Until we start with HONEST numbers, I stand by my statement that they're FOS and only a dumbass would buy your song and dance.

you want "my" numbers?
lets start with this.
BillyBob bought a new Judson Reactor.
That's no small or "bare bones" TM , BTW.
and installed it in a new Ford cargo van
van cost $25K
so that's $42,600 to start.

what's the cost of a new V 7000HAT?

then we can plug in the monthly payment portion.

lets get real, Sonny.
I told you I have nothing to lose or gain from this debate.
I'm just as interested in HONEST figures and evaluations as everyone else.
But I'll INSIST we use HONEST figures on the non intangible number$


the Bering comment might of been an undeserved zinger.
You had no way of knowing they'd go under.
I know you'll agree (at least privately ) that the Bering Vs are the least desirable.

so, price of a new V 7000HAT, please.
I'll run the calculator for financing Billy and Mort's numbers once you tell us the price.


Your move
give us a straight number to start with, or continue to avoid and side step the starting monthly payment issue.



..L.T.A.

 

[Tile Nerd]

I don't believe the assumption that a vortex owner cleans more square footage. Perhaps it's possible when running 2 wands... but tell me Vortex people... how man of you run 2 wands every day on every job?

The reality is that 99.99% of the time they will clean the same amount of carpet every day. The difference is perception because it's bigger. Even dry times won't be that big of difference if the normal truckmount is set-up properly. Don't get me wrong, perception can be useful marketing especially against the average hack, but any decent marketer can out market the average hack.

BTW, you also left off the vehicle insurance variable which WILL be significantly higher with a diesel, commercial box truck.

 

[Dolly Llama]

BTW, you also left off the vehicle insurance variable which WILL be significantly higher with a diesel, commercial box truck.

true that.
That's another card of many I'm holding.
We must establish an HONEST monthly payment for a new 7000HAT first.
Since "he" mentioned a payment to OWN at end of term, I plan to hold to that model.

I suspect Shawn is looking for ways to avoid that figure.
(why else wouldn't he just say what a new 7000HAT cost?)
we'll all start crunching numbers once he gives us that figure.

The intangibles can come latter.
The tangible numbers should be cut and dried.

Nice thing about math, 2+2 always equals 4.
unless someone tries to twist 2+2 into something that becomes nothing more than a marketing SMOKE SCREEN



..L.T.A.

 

[Rex Tyus]

Larry I am starting to think this debate will not actually happen. I am thinking he called you out how and when he did because he thought you needed two weeks for research. He thought he could embarrass you and this would be over before you actually had time to respond . No way did he ever plan on those numbers being critiqued. Much less truly debated.

I have read the "scenario" a couple of times and I can't seem to find the list price for either the V or the Van set up. Now I admit I need glasses but am too cool to wear them. Could someone tell me what line it is on. I guess we could always do a reverse calculation of $1500 a month at 60 months and 10% with a 5000 down payment and that would give us the price for a NEW HAT 7000? Does anyone think Blue line would honor that price?

 

[Tile Nerd]

Nice thing about math, 2+2 always equals 4.
unless someone tries to twist 2+2 into something that becomes nothing more than a marketing SMOKE SCREEN
..L.T.A.

He might have ordered and is using one of AlGore's calculator. Never know what 2 + 2 is going to equal with it. LOL

 

[diamond brian]

Nerd hit the nail on the head.

The line item showing Vortex cleaning more carpet per day by dual-wanding would necessarily presume that both Billy Bob and Scooter are operating at a minimum of 100% capacity.

 

[Rex Tyus]

The line item showing Vortex cleaning more carpet per day by dual-wanding would necessarily presume that both Billy Bob and Scooter are operating at a minimum of 100% capacity.

Yes and 4 machine hours a day is hardly capacity.

Like I said this thread will die soon enough. There is no way that particular scenario will hold up to any scrutiny at all. Much less an all out assault.

That would make a great ad in a Small Business opportunities magazine. The place all overworked middle management types go to dream about being their own boss. They will use any excuse they can to quit and use their stock ownership to put themselves in business. Even when they know something don't sound right they will do it just for the escape.

 

[Mikey P]

I have a Vortex and I'm not afraid to use it the way it was meant to be.
Two for the price of one and a half.




Larry is a section 8 hack and Yaps is new car salesman so **** em both and do what is right for YOUR company.



End of story.

 

[Art Kelley]

Even assuming that Shawn York's numbers are in the ballpark, what is striking is how close the net revenue is for both cleaners. To me it's not worth using a big smelly diesel stinking up the neighborhoods, and having to carry a chimp around on my shoulder for years and years. I love working alone. That extra $8413/yr could easily be trimmed down substantially by the extra vehicle and business insurance, accounting costs, and additional employee costs.( Buying food, drinks, Christmas bonus, bail, loans etc)

 

[joey895]

Even assuming that Shawn York's numbers are in the ballpark, what is striking is how close the net revenue is for both cleaners. To me it's not worth using a big smelly diesel stinking up the neighborhoods, and having to carry a chimp around on my shoulder for years and years. I love working alone. That extra $8413/yr could easily be trimmed down substantially by the extra vehicle and business insurance, accounting costs, and additional employee costs.( Buying food, drinks, Christmas bonus, bail, loans etc)

I must say this was my thoughts when I read it. You spend an extra to 40g's on a machine , have the additional headache of an employee, have to drive this huge monster of a truck to net an extra 8 g's. And that is assuming that you are running at full capacity all the time, meaning having enough business all the time to max out sq footage cleaned and having the kind of business that would be beneficial to dual wand. Way too much risk for a minimal payout. I know the argument is the owner is personally cleaning less carpet but frankly he is still working just as many, if not more hours trying to get the extra business that he would need and managing his employee.

 

[hogjowl]

I'm just wondering who Morton is?

I think I'm gonna sue.

 

[Ron Lippold]

Well i have stayed out of this as long as I could. There is no doubt that a Vortex is over kill--Just what I like. #1 The production that a guy can get is unbelievable, one job a few weeks ago 3 of us 16,000 ft in 6 hr. Another big one 400-500 feet hose runs 38,687 sq ft a big pain in the ass job 30 hrs lots of set up and tear down. #2 the wrap if its done right they cant be beat, Yes I get walk ups and drive bys a nice 750 dollar one last week, more than half of my payment. #3 the look on a customers face when you pull up priceless, they finally feel like they are going to get what they are paying for. Lets face it it cost to do business and some of us hate paying twice, I have talked to more than one of you that wishes they had the balls and the credit score to do it right. I would do it all over again anytime. I love the high heat and super high flow, the 20 minute dry times cant be beat either. sorry I was so long winded.

 

[gasaxe]

[quote="Art Kelley":167n3i1w]Even assuming that Shawn York's numbers are in the ballpark, what is striking is how close the net revenue is for both cleaners. To me it's not worth using a big smelly diesel stinking up the neighborhoods, and having to carry a chimp around on my shoulder for years and years. I love working alone. That extra $8413/yr could easily be trimmed down substantially by the extra vehicle and business insurance, accounting costs, and additional employee costs.( Buying food, drinks, Christmas bonus, bail, loans etc)

I must say this was my thoughts when I read it. You spend an extra to 40g's on a machine , have the additional headache of an employee, have to drive this huge monster of a truck to net an extra 8 g's. And that is assuming that you are running at full capacity all the time, meaning having enough business all the time to max out sq footage cleaned and having the kind of business that would be beneficial to dual wand. Way too much risk for a minimal payout. I know the argument is the owner is personally cleaning less carpet but frankly he is still working just as many, if not more hours trying to get the extra business that he would need and managing his employee.[/quote:167n3i1w]






thats the thing about those numbers...while some thing the cost of the truck is misrepresented in actuality the production capacity of dual tools cleaning i feel is far understated in that example. Some on both sides but much..much more on the side of the vortex or any REAL dual tool capable truck. I feel 1200 to 1500 a day is very reasonable with what most here would consider low sq ft prices (20 to 30 cents) 500 to 600 a day with a single tool truck is humpin it, even with a shadow, at those rates. Keep in mind thats not considering ANY upselling strictly cleaning (carpet,uph,tile)

too many of you are derailing saying owe well you have to have the business or i bet most dont even run two tools most of the time..blah...blah..blah Thats fine and dandy if you dont have the inflow and your not gonna utilize the equipment for what its capable of the HELL NO it aint worth it.

While yous alls are trying to crunch your numbers be sure and figure in for the cost of the additionals that come with this type of truck included in the sticker price... If you go to interlinks website it will tell you what a new vortex sells for I already posted that ONCE in this thread unless...you just have to hear it from shawn....

 

[Rex Tyus]

Mikey said "end of story" so I am pretty much done with this one.

I personally could make an argument either way. I could be wrong but I don't think Larry ever said the Vortex was never worth the money. Only overkill for the typical cleaner's business plan. Shawn's example only reinforced Larry's original opinion in my view.

 

[gasaxe]

something to throw out there...

my point of view comes from using or owning a
#4 behind a kohler with a lp heater mounted in a dodge maxi van( bad ass "little" unit.. single wand

59 roots behind a ford 4cyl industrial engine heat exch. ( i built it) still in service too. single wand

two different 68 roots behind 64hp wisconsins, one with heat exch of several different configurations...one had lp heater...one in a van one in a trailer.. both primarily single wand machines (both of these were not store bought)

68 roots behind 80hp johndeer heat exchange in a trailer, primarily single wand but had capacity to dual wand and did on a couple of occasions..
(homemade)

68 roots/ behind a perkins diesel in a 1 ton ford diesel van setup for dual wands and ran that way quit a bit.. (homemade)

prochem 405..the one with the digital control panel..that thing was a p.o.s..

#7 sutorbuilt behind a 120hp jondeer in a f650 w/a cat diesel heat exchanger THREE TOOLS homemade..sort of


Im sure those of you arguing against the big trucks have ran both small and large so as to really know what your talking about and not just speculating.....