If you believe that HWE is NOT STEAM CLEANING...
- Thread starter Jimbo
- Start date
$42,600 with 5k down 10% interest drops Billy Bobs yearly machine cost from $12000 to $9600.
If I did the #s right.
Factor in insurance, tags and property tax and Billy Bob pulls ahead. :shock: Without even addressing his poor production numbers. Or the fact he will sell more carpet protector in a residential setting than Scooter did in the commercial arena. Plus Billy Bob likes his cushy daytime hours and don't like cleaning at nite.
In fairness southern climates wouldn't need an over sized shop door. We would leave em out side.
If I did the #s right.
Factor in insurance, tags and property tax and Billy Bob pulls ahead. :shock: Without even addressing his poor production numbers. Or the fact he will sell more carpet protector in a residential setting than Scooter did in the commercial arena. Plus Billy Bob likes his cushy daytime hours and don't like cleaning at nite.
In fairness southern climates wouldn't need an over sized shop door. We would leave em out side.
Tile Nerd
Member
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- Feb 23, 2007
- Messages
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meAt said:
Muey bueno!
Rex Tyus said:$42,600 with 5k down 10% interest drops Billy Bobs yearly machine cost from $12000 to $9600.
If I did the #s right.
Factor in insurance, tags and property tax and Billy Bob pulls ahead. :shock: Without even addressing his poor production numbers. Or the fact he will sell more carpet protector in a residential setting than Scooter did in the commercial arena. Plus Billy Bob likes his cushy daytime hours and don't like cleaning at nite.
In fairness southern climates wouldn't need an over sized shop door. We would leave em out side.
i live in the south and there are plenty nights it gets below freezing. Sometimes we get lucky enough not to get above freezing.
might need to figure in the cost difference in tags...weight on a v might cost you some extra blow every year compared to the van......gotta replace 6 tires instead of 4...... how about those mud flaps that get torn up and looking ratty after a year or two....dont have that problem with the van.........If your dual wandin your gonna wear out more hose faster than if your single wandin, add in 100-150 ft of solution and vac hose plus you hafta use that really expensive shnit bcause that v gets soooo dam hot!!!!!!!!!! seals,valves,qds, all that stuffs gonna have to replaced more often if your crankin 250+ at the wand(s)
im sure ill think of some more stuff..................
your gonna back over ALOT more crap in that big azz truck (mailboxes,small animals,birdfeeders,....any other crap you cant see out the side mirror) not a problem with the van..better figure in a in house insurance policy to cover that stuff. You claim that stuff everytime it happens your rates are gonna go through the roof or worse yet they might kick ya to the curb.........
NO MORE DRIVE THRUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats gonna kill production right there!!!!!!!!!!! gotta park that big bastard somewhere and go inside to eat lunch......
NO MORE DRIVE THRUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats gonna kill production right there!!!!!!!!!!! gotta park that big bastard somewhere and go inside to eat lunch......
Tile Nerd
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2007
- Messages
- 545
There is plenty of evidence here to suggest that you're not gonna make more money by owning a Vortex. You're only going to have a larger head which will shrink after to begin to regret it.
Also, many neighborhoods aren't going to let you park that beast in front of your house. So now you have the expense of finding somewhere to put it. That doesn't work well for most owner/operators.
PUT THAT THING AWAY!
Also, many neighborhoods aren't going to let you park that beast in front of your house. So now you have the expense of finding somewhere to put it. That doesn't work well for most owner/operators.
PUT THAT THING AWAY!
Jim Martin
Supportive Member
The Tile Nerd said:
I guess I am the exception..........I have been on both sides and I now own a Vortex and I have managed to raise my bottom line and make WAY more money then I was with my cds.......since the first day I put it on the asphalt I have not had one regret........
I am not saying Shawn is correct..and I am not saying Larry is either......
but some of you just don't have a fooking clue....................
Jim Martin.......O/O and allowed to park inhisowndamn drive way.....
Bob Savage
Member
A very interesting thread indeed!
There's no doubt in my mind that dual wanding is so much more efficient than single wanding on virtually almost every job that we do.
I think the problem with most who try dual wanding is the truckmount they are using is not able to supply the same heat, pressure, and vacuum they are used to when using just a single wand.
If you were to use a truckmount that would give each cleaning tech all the heat they wanted, sustained pressure and flow to each wand, and sustained strong vacuum to each wand, that cleaning team would end up dual wanding most every cleaning job.
Now consider that same truckmount, which doesn't burn any gasoline when running, and has an extremely reliable APO so you don't have to stop and dump on those large jobs, costs around only 10K, but will still give you that high production cleaning, and easily fits into a smaller van that is better on gas mileage, costs less to maintain, so you have a package that has no other equal.
This truckmount will also easily remove from the van to go inside for those really long hose runs, or high rise cleaning. When it does all go inside, you can fit the entire truckmount on a specially designed 2 wheel dolly for 1 trip inside (all hoses, chem jug, wand, etc.). When it goes inside it uses an electric heater and you feed hot water through the pump. It will still produce high cleaning temps.
You can also move any one of the 4 modules from the van and also clean that way. Example: You have a job 500 feet from the van. Remove the main vac unit from it's base and take it forward (weight 42 lbs.) and plug it in. Leave the pressure pump and heater in the van and run 500' of steam line. It will produce blistering heat and high sustained flow and pressure.
This truckmount only needs 15 amp circuits to operate. Finding 20 amp circuits is not easy to do in most residential settings.
I will venture to say this electric truckmount will produce higher sustained heat than the Vortex!
There's no doubt in my mind that dual wanding is so much more efficient than single wanding on virtually almost every job that we do.
I think the problem with most who try dual wanding is the truckmount they are using is not able to supply the same heat, pressure, and vacuum they are used to when using just a single wand.
If you were to use a truckmount that would give each cleaning tech all the heat they wanted, sustained pressure and flow to each wand, and sustained strong vacuum to each wand, that cleaning team would end up dual wanding most every cleaning job.
Now consider that same truckmount, which doesn't burn any gasoline when running, and has an extremely reliable APO so you don't have to stop and dump on those large jobs, costs around only 10K, but will still give you that high production cleaning, and easily fits into a smaller van that is better on gas mileage, costs less to maintain, so you have a package that has no other equal.
This truckmount will also easily remove from the van to go inside for those really long hose runs, or high rise cleaning. When it does all go inside, you can fit the entire truckmount on a specially designed 2 wheel dolly for 1 trip inside (all hoses, chem jug, wand, etc.). When it goes inside it uses an electric heater and you feed hot water through the pump. It will still produce high cleaning temps.
You can also move any one of the 4 modules from the van and also clean that way. Example: You have a job 500 feet from the van. Remove the main vac unit from it's base and take it forward (weight 42 lbs.) and plug it in. Leave the pressure pump and heater in the van and run 500' of steam line. It will produce blistering heat and high sustained flow and pressure.
This truckmount only needs 15 amp circuits to operate. Finding 20 amp circuits is not easy to do in most residential settings.
I will venture to say this electric truckmount will produce higher sustained heat than the Vortex!
Dolly Llama
Number 5
The Tile Nerd said:
guess that's half true, Wayne.
Jim bought a "slightly" used V from the one that regretted buying it new and was glad to sell it.
Jim, I've always considered you a straight shooter, and good biz man.
Would you share what year, and model you bought?
I'm really getting nosy now , will you tell us what you paid for it?
If I recall, you've mentioned many things you changed and fixed.
Fresh water tank leaking, maybe?
Changed a bunch of galvanized fitting or something?
Your latest broken PTO shaft.
Shawn, I'm probably done with this thread.
It's become boring and I don't have the time to monkey around with you.
Unless you want to help finish roughing in the plumbing, drains and wiring on my new bathroom and first floor laundry room.
Then help hang and finish drywall, then the laminate flooring.
If not, I'll have to leave you with this;
your analogy is fOS because;
point 1.) you started our with bogus numbers
2.) you haven't included all the other expenses that cost more compared to a standard van.
3.) you used two completely different biz models for your comparison.
How 'bout I get one of Ricky Cimex best peeps and use them to compare numbers with Scooter?
If you insist on TM, maybe Ken Snow will share what his best crew does.
4.) anyone who's been in the biz long enough, already knows if they can utilize a mega TM to their benefit.
Or they simply want one and can afford it.
Those guys are not paying attention to your silly creative accounting marketing.
The only ones that will swallow it hook line and sinker, are the ones that can least afford it.
Like that poor sod that you convinced he needed a V to clean Golden Corrals all night.
He had just enough to know he wasn't getting back into this biz after he crashed.
BTW, is that the guy you persuaded to cash out his 401K?
(or tried too)
in closing, I might look in on this thread from time to time.
But I've made enough points to make my point that your numbers a FOS
so carry on, maybe some dumbazz will swallow it hook line and sinker
..L.T.A.
Jim Martin
Supportive Member
Mine is a 2004 ...........6008 series it had 1400 hours on the machine and approx 40,000 on the UD
I bought it for just slightly more then they wanted for a new van and a new cds unit..
I bought it with the knowledge of a leak in the tank.......it was worse then what I had thought but that was my fault for not looking at it closer......
There was some galvanized fittings on the eagle reels and a few of my hoses......
The reels were bought from a out side company and installed on the truck
The hoses I don't know..........
The pto shaft..........everyone is still scratching there head about that one.....just a fluke thing it happened ....
I run my truck hard....I am out there most times 6 days a week pushing 3 to 4 good size jobs a day
we don't have the harsh winters..we run all year like this.........and in the summer time the heat can be a killer....
but this machine just keeps running....I can turn it on, walk away not not think twice about it....
I am not defending anyone here....but ..if you are looking for the perfect TM .you have better odds at winning the lottery.....they are just not out there..............what might be good for one .may not fit the applications for another....and if you think that you are not going to have break downs and shit happen.........you are only lying to yourself......It is not a matter of "if" you have a break down ......it is how you handle it "when" it happens.....
This is not for everyone.........but it is no different then the company that runs 6 butler's and 8 guys....If that's the way he wants to structure his company .so be it.......it's not the way I want to structure mine.......although I am running hard I don't feel I am ready to turn that corner yet and really have no desire.....
I went a complete different direction.....I maxed out my CDS before I started looking at what to do next...
Interlink dropped the ball on a new one I was about ready to buy...which worked out good because I really did not want to do that..so what I did is I shut up and I started listening......instead of jumping on the band wagon and making comments I knew nothing about...Found Jon flew to MN. cleaned with him all day..to see if it was true and how this machine really cleaned....flew back home that night ....sat down to see if it would fit our needs and take me where I wanted to go.....figured it would...flew back up 3 weeks later and drove it home..still one of the smartest things we have done (warts and all)
I did not buy new ......I bought used...
I did not lease.......I financed.......(much smarter)
I did not buy a 1400 ud with the 230 gal fresh tank and 2 waste tanks.....that did not fit my structure
I got the 1200 ud with 130 gal tank and 1 waste tank...much better for a O/O that only duel wands about twice a year....
I bought it for just slightly more then they wanted for a new van and a new cds unit..
I bought it with the knowledge of a leak in the tank.......it was worse then what I had thought but that was my fault for not looking at it closer......
There was some galvanized fittings on the eagle reels and a few of my hoses......
The reels were bought from a out side company and installed on the truck
The hoses I don't know..........
The pto shaft..........everyone is still scratching there head about that one.....just a fluke thing it happened ....
I run my truck hard....I am out there most times 6 days a week pushing 3 to 4 good size jobs a day
we don't have the harsh winters..we run all year like this.........and in the summer time the heat can be a killer....
but this machine just keeps running....I can turn it on, walk away not not think twice about it....
I am not defending anyone here....but ..if you are looking for the perfect TM .you have better odds at winning the lottery.....they are just not out there..............what might be good for one .may not fit the applications for another....and if you think that you are not going to have break downs and shit happen.........you are only lying to yourself......It is not a matter of "if" you have a break down ......it is how you handle it "when" it happens.....
This is not for everyone.........but it is no different then the company that runs 6 butler's and 8 guys....If that's the way he wants to structure his company .so be it.......it's not the way I want to structure mine.......although I am running hard I don't feel I am ready to turn that corner yet and really have no desire.....
I went a complete different direction.....I maxed out my CDS before I started looking at what to do next...
Interlink dropped the ball on a new one I was about ready to buy...which worked out good because I really did not want to do that..so what I did is I shut up and I started listening......instead of jumping on the band wagon and making comments I knew nothing about...Found Jon flew to MN. cleaned with him all day..to see if it was true and how this machine really cleaned....flew back home that night ....sat down to see if it would fit our needs and take me where I wanted to go.....figured it would...flew back up 3 weeks later and drove it home..still one of the smartest things we have done (warts and all)
I did not buy new ......I bought used...
I did not lease.......I financed.......(much smarter)
I did not buy a 1400 ud with the 230 gal fresh tank and 2 waste tanks.....that did not fit my structure
I got the 1200 ud with 130 gal tank and 1 waste tank...much better for a O/O that only duel wands about twice a year....
Please don't get me started. Heat is so overrated. I can maintain 270 to 280 almost all day long with one wand and flowing quite a bit of water. But why?
I am not fond of hoses wearing out faster, valves going out, my Hydroforce not working properly, getting burned all the time...and worrying what might happen if a hose gives out in a clients home.
You do NOT need really high heat to clean well...and I would love for someone to argue this point with me. I really would.
If you know how to clean then you clean according to T.A.C.T., nothing more needs to be said.
If you do want smoking hot water then talk to Savage, Oxley,or some of the others that can help you out with a propane system. But really, just learn to clean.
http://devildogtodd.wordpress.com/
DevilDog
I am not fond of hoses wearing out faster, valves going out, my Hydroforce not working properly, getting burned all the time...and worrying what might happen if a hose gives out in a clients home.
You do NOT need really high heat to clean well...and I would love for someone to argue this point with me. I really would.
If you know how to clean then you clean according to T.A.C.T., nothing more needs to be said.
If you do want smoking hot water then talk to Savage, Oxley,or some of the others that can help you out with a propane system. But really, just learn to clean.
http://devildogtodd.wordpress.com/
DevilDog
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
DevilDog said:
Uhhhh...
Why? Because you clean faster and more thoroughly in a shorter period of time. It's pretty simple.
Hey, Todd... There's a trick to using a HydroForce with a truck mount: Follow the directions. It doesn't work above 180 degrees or 300 PSI.
Prespray, then turn the heat and pressure back up.
Hoses going out faster is a minor expense when you figure in the increase in productivity... as is valve repair.
As a chemical supplier, man I really wish more people thought like you, though, Todd. Turn the heat down and use more chemicals...
But as a truck mount manufacturer, I'm a bit at odds with the above, because I want my systems to be hot and high- flow at the same time.
... And by the way, Shawn may have been impressed with the temperature of Bob's system in Atlanta... but Bob's came in second next to the SplitSteam. (We turned it off at 265 degrees and climbing, with 2 wands running simultaneously.)
This "great debate" is starting to remind me of the HWE vs. OP "discussion" that Geurkink and I engaged in several years ago. We got so pissed, that it got out of control. And, speaking for me, personally, I really didn't like the way it felt, in retrospect. It reminded me of party days from years gone by, when I'd wake up with a hangover and resolve not to "do that again"...
Still, it's good entertainment to sit and watch... 8)
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Shawn York said:
I already have, Shawn
BTW, De-Nile is not a river in Egypt
Thanks Jim
For the record, I agree with you.
(as usual)
BTW, I'm not anti V/AT
There's a place where it makes $en$e.
The Jolly Green Vegan is a perfect example.
There's also those who just "want one" for many reasons that make $en$e to them.
I can dig that too.
Those guys aren't wide eyed rookies though and already know how to count beans.
..L.T.A.
hogjowl
Idiot™
Looking back, Doodaddy, I GAS about that old debate.
Unlike this one ...
Unlike this one ...
B&BGaryC
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,667
- Name
- B&BGaryC
When I first started out managing this company I realized that customers don't grow on trees
and that by "willing" it to happen, the phone will not start ringing off the hook, especially
when people don't even know you clean carpets.
I never had to build a customer base at the last company, I just had to try to keep it.
The advice that I got was that I needed to buy a vortex with a snappy wrap and all the goodies
for about $109,000. Forget that. I got numerous suggestions to just buy a Vortex and all my
problems would be fixed overnight. That pissed me off. I was bitter and equated a Vortex to a
push lawnmower with a V8 on top of it. I wrote them off an figured they were useless. Having just
gotten a taste of higher flow and vacuum improvements from greenie, I am chomping
at the bit to find some way to run a Vortex. I think they are good machines, and probably
worth the money. I also do believe that you will get walk-ups from them. I think you will get a
comparable number of walk-ups from a clean cube-van with a killer wrap. If I can nail down some of
these accounts that I have been gunning for, and expand my commercial business I will submit some
figures to the company owner about the Vortex. I will also submit a bid for Hydramaster's new monster
in a cube van with a full professional wrap. When he sees the price difference, I will explain that
we know for a fact we can trust the Vortex to run all day long, three wands, flying through huge
commercial accounts that generally take multiple weekends in just one Saturday. And then explain
we could probably get two wands off the Hydra-Beast, or run a little bit slower, a little bit sloppier 3
wand team, put the Beast in a less expensive gas burning rig, and save on the equipment too... That
would also save us from using an elephant gun to kill a prairie dog when single wanding residential.
That's my thoughts on the whole situation. But I gather that's not what this debate is about.
It's about one guy accusing the other guy of fluffing the figures a bit to show his product is the best choice.
and that by "willing" it to happen, the phone will not start ringing off the hook, especially
when people don't even know you clean carpets.
I never had to build a customer base at the last company, I just had to try to keep it.
The advice that I got was that I needed to buy a vortex with a snappy wrap and all the goodies
for about $109,000. Forget that. I got numerous suggestions to just buy a Vortex and all my
problems would be fixed overnight. That pissed me off. I was bitter and equated a Vortex to a
push lawnmower with a V8 on top of it. I wrote them off an figured they were useless. Having just
gotten a taste of higher flow and vacuum improvements from greenie, I am chomping
at the bit to find some way to run a Vortex. I think they are good machines, and probably
worth the money. I also do believe that you will get walk-ups from them. I think you will get a
comparable number of walk-ups from a clean cube-van with a killer wrap. If I can nail down some of
these accounts that I have been gunning for, and expand my commercial business I will submit some
figures to the company owner about the Vortex. I will also submit a bid for Hydramaster's new monster
in a cube van with a full professional wrap. When he sees the price difference, I will explain that
we know for a fact we can trust the Vortex to run all day long, three wands, flying through huge
commercial accounts that generally take multiple weekends in just one Saturday. And then explain
we could probably get two wands off the Hydra-Beast, or run a little bit slower, a little bit sloppier 3
wand team, put the Beast in a less expensive gas burning rig, and save on the equipment too... That
would also save us from using an elephant gun to kill a prairie dog when single wanding residential.
That's my thoughts on the whole situation. But I gather that's not what this debate is about.
It's about one guy accusing the other guy of fluffing the figures a bit to show his product is the best choice.
Bob Savage
Member
Actually, Duane, you are correct in your figures that day, but I was not trying to out-do the Split-steam (which BTW had a 350,000 BTU boiler compared to our 220,000 BTU boiler), I was simply demoing our truckmount for the cleaners attending. At the demo at Rendall's shop in Michigan a year later, I pegged the Lie Dectector at 302º, which I agree is insane, but they asked to see what it would do.
It was a great turnout in Hotlanta and I thank you for your hospitality.
Those who think heat is over-rated have not experienced what it does while cleaning.
It was a great turnout in Hotlanta and I thank you for your hospitality.
Those who think heat is over-rated have not experienced what it does while cleaning.
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Shawn, I love you
let me sum up mine and bring closure to "my " part.
First, I don't think I called you a liar.
I said your numbers were FOS
I stand by that.
I don't think you're a liar, cause you actually see it as making sense.
What I see are two fundamentally opposed views.
I don't think the numbers could ever be reconciled between you and I.
Simply because they're arbitrary/hypothetical/incomplete numbers.
I feel a little ugly for ripping you a new a azz
Maybe I should take a big toke when I get excited like this.
It seems to change my attitude to peace, love and hippie beads
My apologies to you and the rest of board for having "too much" edge at times
..L.T.A.
let me sum up mine and bring closure to "my " part.
First, I don't think I called you a liar.
I said your numbers were FOS
I stand by that.
I don't think you're a liar, cause you actually see it as making sense.
What I see are two fundamentally opposed views.
I don't think the numbers could ever be reconciled between you and I.
Simply because they're arbitrary/hypothetical/incomplete numbers.
I feel a little ugly for ripping you a new a azz
Maybe I should take a big toke when I get excited like this.
It seems to change my attitude to peace, love and hippie beads
My apologies to you and the rest of board for having "too much" edge at times
..L.T.A.
Mikey P
Administrator
Shawn,
I've been the victim of meAt monthly PMS tantrums a many times.
I let him have the last word then sneak into his Private Message box to have a good laugh at his expense.
I've been the victim of meAt monthly PMS tantrums a many times.
I let him have the last word then sneak into his Private Message box to have a good laugh at his expense.
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Mikey P said:
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Mikey P
Administrator
I'll say!
hogjowl
Idiot™
Good grief.
ScottM
Member
Enough already,
Lets all have a real cookout
Smoked Pig & Steak
..........and sing Kumbaya
Lets all have a real cookout
Smoked Pig & Steak
..........and sing Kumbaya
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Shawn York said:
it's too late to re-call Rocko.
His flight will be landing soon
when a big guy with no neck, wearing an Armani suit shows up,
just give him what he wants.
it will be better for everyone involved.
Rocko, ee got-a bad-a temper when ee no get eeezz-a way
Amorie Tutti
cockholster and yappy still have me rolling...
On the Diesel thing, g'head an get into that a little more, I want to hear more about the blower comparison and diesel driving it vs: the same torque equivalent gas engine driving it.
I was looking at some of the new BIG slide-in units on the market with a 68hp gas engine and 59 blower and a 52hp diesel and 59, if both are geared to turn said blower at 90% of capacity, and full rated lift under load, which is going to provide more vacuum?
On the Diesel thing, g'head an get into that a little more, I want to hear more about the blower comparison and diesel driving it vs: the same torque equivalent gas engine driving it.
I was looking at some of the new BIG slide-in units on the market with a 68hp gas engine and 59 blower and a 52hp diesel and 59, if both are geared to turn said blower at 90% of capacity, and full rated lift under load, which is going to provide more vacuum?
Shawn I am with you on the rpm drop. I think that is a much overlooked point when evaluating.
My question is wouldn't the throttle control be more of a factor than motor type? For example the newer clutch drives units have an electronic control that maintains the set rpm under load.
My question is wouldn't the throttle control be more of a factor than motor type? For example the newer clutch drives units have an electronic control that maintains the set rpm under load.
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Shawn York said:
Thanks Shawn.
Silly me, I was foolish enough to think you can only draw so many CFMs thru a straw.
I'm a practical kind of guy.
so if you could, once you put away the strobe lite and funkadelic tape, could you get your slide rule out next?
Help me understand (as a "practical" matter) how 50 rpm on a 59 blower makes a difference thru a 2" tubed wand w/hole glide and 100ft of 2" hose.
we can use "practical" real world numbers
say a 59 blower @ 15hg, target rpm 2400
It would really help me understand (again, as a practical matter) how many CFMs are lost thru a *wand and 100ft of 2" hose* going from 2400 to 2350rpm w/59 blower @15hg?
* most TMs are supplied with 2" hose, and that's what the overwhelming majority of CCers use.
Most CCers don't use a glide either, so you can calculate how many CFM will move thru an unglided open wand slot if you want
..L.T.A.
I am curious how man cfms flow through an unglided wand that is locked down to a presprayed commercial glue down carpet?
Cause i don't know
But I do know plenty scream through the vacuum relief valve.
Maybe Tre can help us with his cfm gizmo? I mean the Rug Dr. clocked over 100 cfms. :shock:
Cause i don't know
But I do know plenty scream through the vacuum relief valve.
Maybe Tre can help us with his cfm gizmo? I mean the Rug Dr. clocked over 100 cfms. :shock:
