If you believe that HWE is NOT STEAM CLEANING...

[Dolly Llama]

OK, I ran some numbers.

Mort's actual payment cost pr month is $1624.
I added sales tax, just like in real world
$19,488 pr year

Billy financed $46K.
$970 pr month..$11640 pr year

so now using all the rest of Shawns numbers, Scooter has realized $6564 more per year, not $8400.
Here's an important part left out.
In the final year, Billy will have $12K less in expenses, while Scooter coughs up another $19,488.
So Scooters profit number shrinks even less.



BTW, since Billy only cleans 1500sf a day, if he'd hire a helper, he'd boost production by 50% or better in the typical res scenario.
wonder which dude would make more donuts then?


..L.T.A.

 

[gasaxe]

OK, I ran some numbers.

Mort's actual payment cost pr month is $1624.
I added sales tax, just like in real world
$19,488 pr year

Billy financed $46K.
$970 pr month..$11640 pr year

so now using all the rest of Shawns numbers, Scooter has realized $6564 more per year, not $8400.
Here's an important part left out.
In the final year, Billy will have $12K less in expenses, while Scooter coughs up another $19,488.
So Scooters profit number shrinks even less.



BTW, since Billy only cleans 1500sf a day, if he'd hire a helper, he'd boost production by 50% or better in the typical res scenario.
wonder which dude would make more donuts then?


..L.T.A.

no way you "boost" production by 50 percent by hiring a helper with a single wand unit

you worked awfull hard and only came up with $150 mnth difference in payment amount............ what exactly did billy get for 46k?

 

[Rex Tyus]

no way you "boost" production by 50 percent by hiring a helper with a single wand unit

50% production increase is conservative for having a helper in residential cleaning unless someone is a traffic area only, emulsify, wet and jet cleaner. In fact for the typical residential job in my area two man single wanding is more far productive than trying to dual wand.

This is not speculation.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Billy bought a new Judson Reactor, Brian

Stainless construction, 27HP water cooled, #4 blower
94 gal fresh tank, 100 gal waste tank
hoses, greenhorn wand and some other goodies
$17,600
$25,000 new Ford Super Cargo
$42,600, then he added some other goodies like an electric hose reel



Billy works alone.
having a helper in res surely will boost production by 50%.
with 2 men crew that work together efficiently the wand doesn't stop near as much.

Billy or his helper is moving and tabbing furniture, vacing and pre-spraying ahead of the wand.

I don't question how dual wanding makes $en$e on larger jobs,
But i wonder how much more efficient it is for small, or "average" jobs.

Looking at the recent poll data, most of us clean between 500 to 900 sf pr job.
How much production can be gained when you have two guys setting up and tearing down two sets of hoses and working alone on an average 700sf res job?
I'd suggest two man crew working together could come real close to the same production time from pull up to pull away on an average 700sf res job.

BTW, that $150 a month adds up.
plus the fact, Scooter has an extra year of payments.
Also, if Scooter isn't running to capacity, it's costs him much more than Billy.

Someone mentioned Ins on that big box truck.
I suspect it's more than a standard cargo van.
That's going to cut in on his profits too and change the phony numbers sum-mo

..L.T.A.

 

[gasaxe]

"having a helper in res surely will boost production by 50%.
with 2 men crew that work together efficiently the wand doesn't stop near as much.

Billy or his helper is moving and tabbing furniture, vacing and pre-spraying ahead of the wand.

I don't question how dual wanding makes $en$e on larger jobs,
But i wonder how much more efficient it is for small, or "average" jobs.

Looking at the recent poll data, most of us clean between 500 to 900 sf pr job.
How much production can be gained when you have two guys setting up and tearing down two sets of hoses and working alone on an average 700sf res job?
I'd suggest two man crew working together could come real close to the same production time from pull up to pull away on an average 700sf res job. "



ive worked both senarios on many occasions and from my experience there is no way a 2 man crew working one tool can even come close to dual tools even on a small 500sq ft or less job.

I figured since some of you were so adamantly against big trucks running two tools you would have surely EXPERIENCED it first hand. I guess not

how much time does it take you with a helper to clean a 700sf house. traffic areas in bedrooms. dining room move table and chairs. Living room move all except china cabinets & entertainment center.. from the time you hit the drive to the time you pull out....

 

[B&BGaryC]

no way you "boost" production by 50 percent by hiring a helper with a single wand unit

50% production increase is conservative for having a helper in residential cleaning unless someone is a traffic area only, emulsify, wet and jet cleaner. In fact for the typical residential job in my area two man single wanding is more far productive than trying to dual wand.

This is not speculation.

Maybe you guys have good help. I have noticed on most jobs, I save hardly any time having
a helper. I did have a helper once that insisted on splitting the truck two ways on every
single job. (We did not have a dual wand unit) The hoses got tangled and it was a major PITA
not to mention mrs. jones wondering why the heck we were trying to get it done so fast that we
each had to have a wand. Ever since I started working for B&B I have never had a helper and been happy
to not be dragging some doofus along into my jobs to piss of the customers. I bring help along
on big commercial jobs and the occaisional restoration jobs where they need even the heavy stuff
moved, but other than that, I can actually get some jobs done faster without a helper. Then again,
whenever I had a helper it was always some dingus that the owner's son recommended.

 

[Blue Monarch]

I'm on board with the helper increasing productivity around 50% when single wanding. Curt and I did this a ton in Phoenix. We flew through those jobs, almost feeling guilty about the $$ per hour.

Once you learn how the other works, it just clicks.

 

[Mikey P]

I agree, a helper will speed a well coordinated duo up by at least 50%.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Larry,

Is that your final answer?

to what?
we can add up plenty more numbers of actual expenses.

like brake jobs, tires and alignments, shocks, repairs, etc

we're just getting warmed up, ain't we?


Gary, it sounds like you didn't have a set system for 2 man crew.
It needs to organized and coordinated to realize productivity gains.
T
matter fact, just the way you set up rooms with furniture to be moved and replaced can make a HUGE difference in time


Brian, in the scenario you described, it would take us appx 1 to 1.5 hours from pull up to pull away, depending on room lay outs and whether Ms Phiff is home or not.
(schmooze time if she's home can vary)

...L.T.A.

 

[Rex Tyus]

ive worked both senarios on many occasions and from my experience there is no way a 2 man crew working one tool can even come close to dual tools even on a small 500sq ft or less job.

I figured since some of you were so adamantly against big trucks running two tools you would have surely EXPERIENCED it first hand. I guess not

how much time does it take you with a helper to clean a 700sf house. traffic areas in bedrooms. dining room move table and chairs. Living room move all except china cabinets & entertainment center.. from the time you hit the drive to the time you pull out....

Don' feel bad there are many out there that don't understand the concept of team work. Maybe if you ask around in your area or a nearby market there is an experienced crew that would let you do a ride along or observe. Be kinda creepy having a spectator on a residential job but you might get lucky.

Dual wanding rules on large job sites. No doubt about it. But on the typical residential job it takes longer to dual wand than an organized team single wanding. I don't mean a hose puller and a tech cleaning, I mean a team that works together and compliments each other.


Not gonna play how long "would it take" too many variables. Plus there will always be some on say "you can't do it that fast" and someone to say "I could do it in half of that".

I have worked both scenarios as well.

 

[Rex Tyus]

Meat said

the objective is to use REAL, HONEST figures in Shawn's pretzel logic analysis.

we need to start with a REAL cost of Mort's and BillyBob's TMs to plug in the first figure of monthly cost.
If you're not aware, in the "Steam Cleaning" thread on the 3rd page is York's silly (and phony/fabricated, FOS) analysis of BillyBob and Mort


BTW, Shawn refuses to participate in this.
He asked for the debate, then put up his numbers.
I guess it's fine for him to put up bogus figures and say it doesn't matter cause they'll work out in his favor.

Welp, maybe they will.
I don't know, I'm not a smart biz man like him.
All I'm asking is we start with REAL HONEST numbers and work out the formula from there.

His refusal to participate only reinforces my supposition that he is indeed FOS .
I can only conclude his numbers won't stand up to the light of day, other wise he be all over it.

...L.T.A.

Hey Shawn,

I think he is waiting for you to catch up. This shouldn't be that hard. Plug in same business model numbers, purchase price of units, terms for each, truthful comparisons and you could resolve this pretty quick. I know I said I was pretty much done with this but my god it is like watching a blind man paint. :roll:

 

[Dolly Llama]

Shawn, for petes sake, you really don't have a clue, do you?
You really believe those numbers reflect reality, don't you?
Maybe I've been too hard you.

first you start out with bogus numbers.
We've already established that.

I guess a couple hundred a month extra is no big thing to you.
it's a "little lie", everyone does it, right?
Not to mention an extra year of payments you "forgot"

The next thing is, you're comparing two completely different biz models.
Scooter runs a two man crew.
Put Scooter alone in the V and compare "apples to apples" with Billy

Put a helper on Billy's van and compare "apples to apples"
You're numbers won't look so good then

Remember Ken Snow?
he and Scott Rendall are two of the sharpest guys I know when it comes to money and biz.

I'm 100% certain if Ken could make more donuts with a fleet of Vs, he'd have them.
Likewise, I'm sure Scott Rendall would replace his several vans with V's too if they made $en$e


man-o-day, you really "don't" get it, do you?
You really do think your numbers reflect reality.
Maybe i miss judge you, Shawn


..L.T.A.

 

[B&BGaryC]

I could never make a two man crew work. I wrote out a production plan that should make us fly
through jobs. I detailed it down to who holds the tape measure and how many towels you bring
onto a job. I wrote down every last detail, actually posted it on the board once. The problem is,
after a while I get tired of asking somebody to pick up the hoses and move them for me. I
get tired of asking for a tool they should already have ready for me. I get tired of asking them to
move a piece of furniture, to groom a room, to prespray a room, to get the hoses out of the way
again, to get spotters out for the spots, why they don't have the room vacuumed, what they are
doing just staring at me while I work, how they can watch me struggle and trip over cords while
they lean against a wall. I feel like a dumbass repeating these basic commands over and over
and over again on every single job and I just give up. I would rather do it all myself than repeat
myself every single time.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I wrote down every last detail, actually posted it on the board once. The problem is,
after a while I get tired of asking somebody to pick up the hoses and move them for me. I
get tired of asking for a tool they should already have ready for me. I get tired of asking them to
move a piece of furniture, to groom a room, to prespray a room, to get the hoses out of the way
again, to get spotters out for the spots, why they don't have the room vacuumed, what they are
doing just staring at me while I work, how they can watch me struggle and trip over cords while
they lean against a wall. I feel like a dumbass repeating these basic commands over and over
and over again on every single job and I just give up. I would rather do it all myself than repeat
myself every single time.

Over the years I've had good ones, some not so good ones and one great one..
The not so good ones have to be told what to do.
You have to think ahead for them on every job.
I have 2 good ones now.
They don't believe the stories of the great one and me production times.
Jason and I were poetry in motion.
We were always in sync from pull up, to pull away
Jason was my best cleaner, best smile, best operator and EVERY Mrs Phiff loved Jason.
Jason couldn't get over his personal problems, or he'd be running my biz right now


..L.T.A.

 

[gasaxe]

ive worked both senarios on many occasions and from my experience there is no way a 2 man crew working one tool can even come close to dual tools even on a small 500sq ft or less job.

I figured since some of you were so adamantly against big trucks running two tools you would have surely EXPERIENCED it first hand. I guess not

how much time does it take you with a helper to clean a 700sf house. traffic areas in bedrooms. dining room move table and chairs. Living room move all except china cabinets & entertainment center.. from the time you hit the drive to the time you pull out....

Don' feel bad there are many out there that don't understand the concept of team work. Maybe if you ask around in your area or a nearby market there is an experienced crew that would let you do a ride along or observe. Be kinda creepy having a spectator on a residential job but you might get lucky.

Dual wanding rules on large job sites. No doubt about it. But on the typical residential job it takes longer to dual wand than an organized team single wanding. I don't mean a hose puller and a tech cleaning, I mean a team that works together and compliments each other.


Not gonna play how long "would it take" too many variables. Plus there will always be some on say "you can't do it that fast" and someone to say "I could do it in half of that".

I have worked both scenarios as well.

lmao i have worked many...many days single wand with two man crew always with someone i knew very well...always someone who was a experienced cleaner..guys that either i new their next move or them mine before it was made....I wouldnt give anyone the false hope that we increased productivity by 50 percent or more. Maybe 20 to 30 percent but not 50.. Granted there may be a job or two that because of that particular situation you would say it aproached a 50 percent increase but not overall for an extended period of time. Maybe some of yous is just old or slow..or maybe both I cleaned 3 fairly large jobs today and only one of them would there have been a major decrease in time on job by having a helper. two sets of stairs, carpet upstairs and in a basement two kids at the job move the furniture so that was no biggie...
Now all 3 of those jobs would have taken at worst half as long with someone running another tool... I wouldve been done by lunch with em instead of almost six pm

First job was 700 sq ft 2 good size lrs,dr, hall only furniture to move was a couch and two chairs. hour and 45 mins from the time i pulled up to the time i left mighta shaved 15 to 20 with someone "helping" carpet was dry to the touch in the first areas i did without force drying ,
second one about the same just different layout no furniture too move. Only time the tool stoped was to prespray.. again 15 to 20 min. tops if someone was helping.. carpet in bedrooms, hall and half lr completely dry when i left only ceiling fans going

The ONLY way more carpet coulda been cleaned today was running two tools. Coulda done a grand easy and been done by 4pm with a second tool running.. This is all cleaning carpet no add on B.S...upselling


The other big thing is had i ran two tools i would have used at worst half the fuel...figure that up at 4.30 a gal

 

[Rex Tyus]

Brian, are you telling me that you only recognize a 15 to 20 % increase when you have someone to vacuum, lay the prespray, scrub, pull furniture out, replace and tab, and groom when you have an assistant? If that is the case you shouldn't be calling me slow.

When you get really good at it you can work adjacent rooms simultaneous and take full advantage of the help. My assistant even presprays and agitates for me on furniture. The "tool" doesn't stop moving. That is the key to productivity. Not to mention he is rolling up the hoses while I am collecting the $$. Every move counts.

I am not a big truck hater BTW. I know they have a place. I also know when single wanding works better for me.

 

[joey895]

Maybe Brian doesn't vacuum, pre-spray, move furniture, etc.

I can imagine that emulsifier only cleaners would probably not gain as much productivity with a two man crew.

 

[gasaxe]

Maybe Brian doesn't vacuum, pre-spray, move furniture, etc.

I can imagine that emulsifier only cleaners would probably not gain as much productivity with a two man crew.

maybe you all should read i laid out in detail what took place with prespray and furniture moving... I guess i just get it done so efficiently by myself every job i do gets prespray, furniture gets moved depending on customers request. a majority of the jobs i do the customer has most of the smaller pieces taken care of only leaving items such as couch,recliner,etc sliders get placed under those first thing once the rooms presprayed those items can be moved in a relatively small amount of time....i guess its that system your speaking of...maybe mine is just that effiecent

 

[Mikey P]

IDGAS




Marty on Mikey's puter.

 

[gasaxe]

i have a large flow of realtor referals in addition to a established traditional residential customer base... pick up key at realty office clean drop off key and invoice. Or realtor has house unlocked ready to go with check cut at closing. dual tools would make this work extremely profitable more so than it already is. not much for a helper to do except drag hose and prespray, i currently use a hydroforce so prespray would have to be timed with drying passes which is usually how we do it when someone is helping.

I service a retirement community and most of these ladies are anal about vaccuming or they have a housecleaner that usually comes in before i clean. From what ive seen prevacin these jobs (using a turbo vac attached to truckmount) not enough soil removal to justify time spent.

Dont ever run one of those rigs on a #6 roots over anything but idle speed :shock:

 

[Dolly Llama]

When you get really good at it you can work adjacent rooms simultaneous and take full advantage of the help.

**** Every move counts.*****

egg-zacally.

This thread has evolved now I guess.
Maybe we can make something more useful of it than a pit bull and yorkie terrier going at it

Brian, I'm curious, why on earth would a single wand crew use a hydroforce ???:shock:
unless they can hose down the whole the place, a HF is the most inefficient tool one could use.
I'm also struck by your comment that you're helper (when you used one) is just a "hose puller".
Why wouldn't he share time on the wand too?

It's more than just time gained from not stopping the wand to vac, pre-spray, move, replace and tab furniture.
Two man crew also gains productivity by reducing the "fatigue factor" on a hot summer day or long day.
That's part of 50% factor too

Also, the intangible of time to schmooze Mrs Phiff while the wand is moving is also invaluable.

the 2 man vs 1 man crew has been debated for years.

Let ME train Billy-Bob and his new pa'dner, and his numbers at the end of the month will out pace Scooter and Mortie's given their cost of operating expenses.
That's on the "average" 500-700sf res job.

Where Scooter and Mortie need to be to clobber Billy and his side kick is on larger jobs, empties or res jobs with carpet and upholstery.
However, Billy knows he doesn't need to swat flies with a sledge hammer and carries a small porty to clean uph while his new shotgun rider cleans the carpet upstairs.:wink:


..L.T.A.

 

[Blue Monarch]

Also, the intangible of time to schmooze Mrs Phiff while the wand is moving is also invaluable.

This is huge. Talking to Mrs Piffleton is a huge factor in getting referrals and building a solid relationship. Both before and after the cleaning. When you have a tech setting up and tearing down during this, you're saving large amounts of time.

 

[gasaxe]

When you get really good at it you can work adjacent rooms simultaneous and take full advantage of the help.

**** Every move counts.*****

egg-zacally.

This thread has evolved now I guess.
Maybe we can make something more useful of it than a pit bull and yorkie terrier going at it

Brian, I'm curious, why on earth would a single wand crew use a hydroforce ???:shock:
unless they can hose down the whole the place, a HF is the most inefficient tool one could use.
I'm also struck by your comment that you're helper (when you used one) is just a "hose puller".
Why wouldn't he share time on the wand too?

It's more than just time gained from not stopping the wand to vac, pre-spray, move, replace and tab furniture.
Two man crew also gains productivity by reducing the "fatigue factor" on a hot summer day or long day.
That's part of 50% factor too

Also, the intangible of time to schmooze Mrs Phiff while the wand is moving is also invaluable.

the 2 man vs 1 man crew has been debated for years.

Let ME train Billy-Bob and his new pa'dner, and his numbers at the end of the month will out pace Scooter and Mortie's given their cost of operating expenses.
That's on the "average" 500-700sf res job.

Where Scooter and Mortie need to be to clobber Billy and his side kick is on larger jobs, empties or res jobs with carpet and upholstery.
However, Billy knows he doesn't need to swat flies with a sledge hammer and carries a small porty to clean uph while his new shotgun rider cleans the carpet upstairs.:wink:


..L.T.A.

blah...blah...blah I really dont need instructions on HOW to clean carpet yes there are problems with a hydroforce but from my experience just about everything that is built by cc manufacturers/suppliers seems to be a little on the crappy side. I dont need to smoooze my customers they are overly thrilled with my work and tend leave me be...matter of fact on repeat business once they meet me at the door i usually dont see them until the job is done..

YOU can try as you might but there is no way you can convince me that a two man crew on a single "tool" truck can come anywhere close to more cleaning/production than 2 tools............ive done it both ways with experienced people that werent standing around picking their azz.


Hop on your short bus and come to the hills we can spend a day cleaning a weeks worth of my jobs then hit white river and go trout fishing...my buddy said they caught 35 in less than an hour last weekend outta one boat..............hey whats more productive one hook in the water or two...lol

 

[Rex Tyus]

Hop on your short bus and come to the hills we can spend a day cleaning a weeks worth of my jobs then hit white river and go trout fishing...

No short bus here. As soon as I get My new Peterbuilt truck with trailer I may take you up on that. As long as I can drink beer while you fish. We wouldn't want to catch too many. 8)

 

[gasaxe]

Brian, I'm curious, why on earth would a single wand crew use a hydroforce ???
unless they can hose down the whole the place, a HF is the most inefficient tool one could use.
I'm also struck by your comment that you're helper (when you used one) is just a "hose puller".
Why wouldn't he share time on the wand too?

i never said when i use a helper they are JUST a hose puller.........In empty houses that second person could be more than a helper if they had a cleaning tool in their hands....same goes for any other job....

 

[hogjowl]

Mikey is spot on in his observation.

 

[Out of Character - 0]

How much less is Scooter working? They both work 4hrs per day and scooter has a extra commute with his employee.

I like the V and I don't question it relevance in large areas or with a crew of 3 but this comparison poor.

A 26ft U-haul won't haul a single mattress any better than a 14ft version, if your only moving a mattress. Capacity is wasted if it's not utilized.

 

[Art Kelley]

So the bottom line is, according to Mr. York, for the average carpet cleaner who dreams about this wonderful dual wand Vortex and how much more he will make with it, compared to his single wand slide-in (or a direct drive with a #4 or 5 blower), you could make $30.50 more a day. That is if your employee doesn't start hitting you up for a raise after 1 or 2 years, doesn't do something so spectacularly stupid that it costs you a few thousand in damages, and you never need to replace the brakes or the tranny or the engine on the Nissan UD diesel.
I think I'll just work alone and enjoy my job.

 

[Rex Tyus]

Shawn, I know this is all in fun and nobody is taking it serious. I am probably the most guilty of stirring the pot on this thread. But you should know there are actually a few of us that will be making decisions soon as too new equipment purchases. One or two may even be able to afford whatever they want, and don't have to settle for what they are approved for. I remember reading that you have nothing to loose in this debate as your contract with Blue line is over. I would assume by that you have nothing to gain either. But for the sake of your legacy some serious thought on your part would be great. You keep wanting Larry to debate your final numbers when you have yet to post a starting point. It is impossible to debate the "final" number when the beginning number has yet to be established. If you think you are winning this debate you are mistaken. Your unwillingness to provide the part that is most pertinent to the debate makes you look afraid and uncertain. I don't know why Larry is taking it easy on you but he is. I guess he figures when your opponent is failing to make his point just let him continue. Not even Vortex owners and fans are defending your numbers because anyone that has been in business knows they are arbitrary and pointless with out knowing WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

8)

 

[Dolly Llama]

Shawn, I can't give you any final numbers.
You haven't given me enough of yours.
We've already established your starting number was wrong right out of the gate..... or FOS, if you prefer.
So I've already answered and proved that point already.
I know we can find more dollars too

what's ins cost for a V?

How much is a brake job?

Shocks?

I'm not very good at math, but shouldn't we add the last year of V payments?
Billy has no payment in year 6.
Scooter is out 19,488.
divided by 6, is $3248.
We should whittle that off the $6500 you say Scooter makes more than Billy pr year.
so I guess we're down to $3250 a year now.

Give me some numbers on brakes, tires, shocks, and Ins for a V

I told you in beginning, I have nothing to lose or gain.
I don't care if we continue.

This is all fun and games to me


..L.T.A.