New TM Quick-Dry System Question

[dgardner]

You know, Kevin’s post and my response got me to thinking. Even if the system worked as advertised, could it dry the example room in 5 minutes? Probably not, it turns out.

Here are my assumptions:

1 gallon of moisture to remove
250 cfm heated air in
250 cfm 85 degree air, fully saturated out (hypothetical, will probably be less than 100% RH)
Machine runs for 5 minutes

We are removing 250 X 5 = 1250 cu ft – or 1250/14 = 89.28 lbs of air from the room. Fully saturated this means we are removing 89.28 X 185 = 16517 grains or 16517/7000 = 2.36 lbs or 2.36/8.34 = 0.28 gallons of water during the 5 minute period.

This means that it would take about 18 minutes to fully remove the whole gallon of moisture from the room BEST CASE. Ouch.

Edit:
I guess the carpet could be called completely dry if we leave the room at 100% RH, so we don’t have to exhaust the whole gallon, we could leave about a quart in the room air. This means we would need only 13 minutes before we called it dry. Still a bit short of the 5 minute claim…

 

[Desk Jockey]

Is the heated air dry air?

In Kansas we can easily get 80% humidity on hot summers day. It's 84 degrees 72% right now and we are not even at noon.


Pull that indoors and you'll put a load on the AC real fast.

 

[Ryan]

Ken Harris also told everyone that glides would reduce their dry times to 1 hour.

 

[dgardner]

Is the heated air dry air?

In Kansas we can easily get 80% humidity on hot summers day. It's 84 degrees 72% right now and we are not even at noon.


Pull that indoors and you'll put a load on the AC real fast.

They make no claim to dehumidify the air as far as I can see. The RH of the air would be lower because of the temp change, but it would contain the same amount of moisture. That would certainly not help, eh?

 

[Bob Savage]

I did read on the KH site where Ken said that you can use the 100' of high heat vac hose (included with the package) for the first 100', and then you can use your regular dirty TM vac hose that you clean with every day for any additional length needed over 100' during the drying process.

The Power-Dri System does not get that hot of course, but this extra margin of safety built in assures the system can operate with complete reliability and ensures the hoses can withstand the positive pressures used. This will allow enough reach to do most areas within the home.You can use regular 2" Vacuum hose after the first 100 ft of dedicated hose on those rare occassions when 100 ft is not enough.

Just how clean is that air going to be going back into the fiber during the quick-dry process over 100' ?

The font size and the font colors at the site have to go.

It is very difficult to read.

 

[TimP]

You know, Kevin’s post and my response got me to thinking. Even if the system worked as advertised, could it dry the example room in 5 minutes? Probably not, it turns out.

Here are my assumptions:

1 gallon of moisture to remove
250 cfm heated air in
250 cfm 85 degree air, fully saturated out (hypothetical, will probably be less than 100% RH)
Machine runs for 5 minutes

We are removing 250 X 5 = 1250 cu ft – or 1250/14 = 89.28 lbs of air from the room. Fully saturated this means we are removing 89.28 X 185 = 16517 grains or 16517/7000 = 2.36 lbs or 2.36/8.34 = 0.28 gallons of water during the 5 minute period.

This means that it would take about 18 minutes to fully remove the whole gallon of moisture from the room BEST CASE. Ouch.

Edit:
I guess the carpet could be called completely dry if we leave the room at 100% RH, so we don’t have to exhaust the whole gallon, we could leave about a quart in the room air. This means we would need only 13 minutes before we called it dry. Still a bit short of the 5 minute claim…

I think what is said above would sound reasonable......so if you think about it. 13 minutes to dry probably a 12x12 room. And an airpath dries a 12x12 room for me in 30 minutes. You save 17 minutes but then add in the time to pull extra hose in and the cost implementing the system. I really don't see how it would make any sense to do this when you can throw an Airpath and move to the next room and it only really costs the technician a minute or two to get the fan out of the truck and continue cleaning carpet. Also who in their right mind would want to do double the work when you can stand around and wait for the airpath to do the same thing, and only have to wait for the last room. Not to mention the cost of running a truckmount to dry the carpet. My opinion is, this is the Dumbest idea I've heard of yet.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Let's try another explanation:

400 CFM of Airflow forced thru the carpet fibers,
instead of circulating above the carpet.

200° Air Temperature generated by 34 HP.

Water-damaged carpet dried faster than other methods.

It seems like a process,
insurance companies & homeowners would welcome.

Larry

 

[KevinL]

Sorry Larry but I don't even like to walk on my freshly cleaned carpet let alone drag in a machine and hose to run over it again. Stupidest idea ever. Put an airpath on finished rooms and a blower in the room you are cleaning and it's near dry when finished packing up. Job done, collect check. I charge $25 per job to bring in the airpath for speed drying.

 

[dgardner]

Let's try another explanation:

400 CFM of Airflow forced thru the carpet fibers,
instead of circulating above the carpet.

Larry

Larry,

If you hooked a 100' piece of 2" ID hose to the output of a blower, even if you left the other end open - would require about 9.5 psi (that's almost 20"hg) of pressure to flow 400 CFM, let alone after you hook it to the rotary and add the glide/carpet restriction.

The description on Ken's site says:
"Finally the positive pressure of this air is closely controlled to only a couple of pounds(psi) to keep backpressure in the system to a minimum and to ensure component longegivity in the 100 ft of dedicated 2" hose"

I used 250 CFM in my examples as a round number because the system might be hooked to different truckmounts, and that seemed like a good average. But now that you have me thinking about airflow, I calculate that the 2psi-limited system would flow no more than 200 cfm through an open 100' 2" hose, and even less than that once hooked to the rotary machine.

You know, I've seen Ken write that he taught physics at the age of 16 - surely he has done these calcs already, right?

That reminds me, I asked several reasonable questions about the system design that you never answered. I'm still interested in the answers.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Hot air can carry more water than cool air, true. However using hot air from the outside environment would actually use that hot air to transport a good amount of moisture INTO the home.

Effective heat-based dehumidification requires an effective air exchange system and equivalent cfm REMOVAL of the saturated air from the home.


This seems to be less than half of such a theoretical system??

 

[dgardner]

Hot air can carry more water than cool air, true. However using hot air from the outside environment would actually use that hot air to transport a good amount of moisture INTO the home.

Effective heat-based dehumidification requires an effective air exchange system and equivalent cfm REMOVAL of the saturated air from the home.


This seems to be less than half of such a theoretical system??

True dat. You know, if you were using the system in an interior room, as the warm moisture-laden air pushes out into the hall/other rooms (that are cooler) you could have condensation forming on surfaces. Exhaust would solve that.

 

[dgardner]

400 CFM of Airflow forced thru the carpet fibers,
instead of circulating above the carpet.

200° Air Temperature generated by 34 HP.

Larry

Larry, Have you even measured the temp or flow? I just had a look at the pressure performance curve for your #4MR blower that comes on your 34hp truckmount. Here's what I found:

At the 2psi Ken claims the pressure is limited to:

2 psi @ max blower speed = 20 deg rise and 390 cfm (not a typo - twenty degrees)
2 psi @ min blower speed = 25 deg rise and 140 cfm

But what if we run the system as hard as we can (10 psi) to squeeze max performance out of it?

10 psi @ max blower speed = 110 deg rise and 350 cfm
10 psi @ min blower speed = 170 deg rise and 100 cfm

I'm sorry, but unless the laws of Physics are different up in Canada (or you are injecting burning propane into the airstream), 400 cfm and 200 deg. - especially at the same time - ain't happenin....

Now if you're restricting the inlet you might achieve higher temps, but the total presure gain would quickly exceed the blower's limits, not good for longevity, and this would lower the cfm as well.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Dan;

Who said I am limiting pressure to 2 PSI ??

There is also some vacuum load to add to the pressure developed.

There is also the heat generated by the engine cooling air.

It was 100° ambient the last few days.

Larry

 

[tracywalker]

As long as cleaners can throw an airmover in a room and call it Dry to the touch, this idea will never really take off. I thought it was a good one at first, but in my opinion 2 things will kill it.

A. I don't see many cleaners buying this expensive upgrade when most including myself won't splurge for even an airpath.
B. Not many home owners are going to pay a premium to have you spend as much time drying the carpet as you did cleaning it, when most cleaners get decent dry times to begin with.

Just my thoughts.

 

[joeynbgky]

and if you install this system on your TM, your TM manufacturer may not honor their warranty.

 

[dgardner]

Dan;

Who said I am limiting pressure to 2 PSI ??

There is also some vacuum load to add to the pressure developed.

There is also the heat generated by the engine cooling air.

It was 100° ambient the last few days.

Larry

From Ken's site:
"Finally the positive pressure of this air is closely controlled to only a couple of pounds(psi) to keep backpressure in the system to a minimum and to ensure component longegivity in the 100 ft of dedicated 2" hose"

Is your system different from Kens? If so, please outline the differences for us.

 

[Mikey P]

Larry

Any chance of seeing the production version of this on Wednesday?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Mikey;

I will have it on a 5 ft. wide projection screen in Booth #633.

It is a drying option on the 34 HP Kohler TM you ran in Dallas.

Heating systems have been proven lately in lots of water damage work.

Actual CFM measured over 280 in some later testing we did (thanks Dave).

Temp rise is ~150 degrees F over inlet temp behind 34 HP Kohler engine cooling air (est @ 100*F)

Larry

 

[idreadnought]

So our goal is to dry carpet faster and we are willing to throw extra money and time at doing that. My question, Is this the best solution to do that? If i was in the market to dry carpets faster and I wanted to throw money at it I would

1. increase the hose size on my machine to decrease drag and increase airflow

2. I would throw money at increasing the hgs of my vacuum source. there are blowers that will sustain 22" of mercury at high flows. (expensive but doable)

3. Post bonnet the carpet with a cotton absorbent pad. (this is probably the fastest way to dry a carpet if you want to go over the carpet a second time)

4. Lots of airpaths.

5. Lower psi of cleaning tool to minimize introduction of moisture

6. Train techs to provide extra slow dry strokes to remove as much water as possible.

7. Use a smaller wand to increase the velocity of the air being forced into the wand lips.

I have considered all of these techniques. However as a business person I came to the conclusion that the my market wouldn't sustain the extra costs I would have to charge to recoup the added expense of doing them. Also consider this, chemdry accomplishes their target dry times by simply using a modified rx20 and using very low pressure.

I am sorry Larry, you and I think a lot the same and we are always trying to find better ways to get the job done. However I don't think this is a system that would be attractive for most cleaning companies.

 

[John Olson]

Is this like the RX-20 with the Blower Pack Mod?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Why not skip the vacuum hoses and just mount a couple of lamb type motors directly to the rotary tool?

This would allow a bit quieter operation. Anyone who has hooked a hose to the discharge side of a PD blower and brought that hose inside a house (I have) knows it is MONSTROUSLY loud.

 

[John Olson]

There is a MOD for the RX that is pretty much just that.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I think a separate unit from the cleaning unit. One with two hoses, dry dry process air using a desiccant and a react hose exhausting the heat out. You send in super hot dry air that has a thirst for moisture. That low grain depression will make that moisture jump right off the carpet. Using the cleaning unit and power plant is just going to be problematic.

 

[Zee]

I remember this thread when it "first aired". I was thinking: this is really a dumb idea..

Now, some time passed...I am thinking: this is still a really dumb idea.


I don't know any real working carpet cleaners that would like to run their tm for that and spend almost double time on a job. Not to mention the air coming in being "dirty".

 

[Desk Jockey]

I agree.

It would have to be easy to use but I'm afraid its just going to be too hard, too expensive and too time consuming to use.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I remember this thread when it "first aired". I was thinking: this is really a dumb idea..

Now, some time passed...I am thinking: this is still a really dumb idea.

next think you know, someone will be trying to market a lectromount that uses the VAN engine to run a generator to power lectric vacs.....


..L.T.A.

 

[Buck1955]

This thread just wore me out... need a Coors Light.

 

[rwcarpet]

What ever happened to KISS? Keep it simple, stupid! Start by buying a BIG enough TM with a great vac and lift, don't "hose monster" pre-spray till the carpet's soaked, use a glide so ya don't wear you or your employees down, and for God's sake, make at least ONE extra dry pass to extract as much moisture as possible. It also helps to have sufficient HOT (230*) solution so's you ain't wasting passes to clean!

......and place a big-ass Powerflyte air mover to move out the moisture! Custys really like the airflow that that PF air mover moves! Custys like the visuals of an air mover doing it's job.

Larry's, (and Kens) idea sounds great, but all the extra messing around with clean/dirty vac hoses just adds time and expense to your cleaning day. This sounds like it would fit the clip-board carrying, 1-800-"call this number before you clean" crowd that markets in my area. "Well, Mrs Piffleton, the "quick dry" would add just a few more dollars to your cleaning bill".

Sufficient power and blower size, good skills in pre-prep of carpet, that will get you pretty darn quick drying times. Again......don't forget HOW much pre-spray that in-line sprayer is putting down, especially in the hands of a new or novice low experience carpet tech.

 

[rwcarpet]

What ever happened to KISS? Keep it simple, stupid! Start by buying a BIG enough TM with a great vac and lift, don't "hose monster" pre-spray till the carpet's soaked, use a glide so ya don't wear you or your employees down, and for God's sake, make at least ONE extra dry pass to extract as much moisture as possible. It also helps to have sufficient HOT (230*) solution so's you ain't wasting passes to clean!

......and place a big-ass Powerflyte air mover to move out the moisture! Custys really like the airflow that that PF air mover moves! Custys like the visuals of an air mover doing it's job.

Larry's, (and Kens) idea sounds great, but all the extra messing around with clean/dirty vac hoses just adds time and expense to your cleaning day. This sounds like it would fit the clip-board carrying, 1-800-"call this number before you clean" crowd that markets in my area. "Well, Mrs Piffleton, the "quick dry" would add just a few more dollars to your cleaning bill".

Sufficient power and blower size, good skills in pre-prep of carpet, that will get you pretty darn quick drying times. Again......don't forget HOW much pre-spray that in-line sprayer is putting down, especially in the hands of a new or novice low experience carpet tech.

OK.....I guess you can use some of the new down-draft mini-pods to dry the carpet, if you don't carry the big-ass blowers anymore.

 

[Spurlington]

Hey, how about designing a wand that traps steam flowing out of the wand and sucking it back to the truck before it hits the air. When I clean, especially stairs, I feel like I'm in a magic show with all of the steam floating around me. If I could somehow trap and suck back to the van, it would be less moisture and humidity in the air which would reduce drying time. I turn a fan on right at the beginning at the 45deg angle just to get the dry process started. Starting the fan early also helps with having gabby customers.